Black hided cattle struggling with this heat

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kenny thomas

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We have had a LOT of high temps so far this spring (Today is the first day of summer, I think) and humidity has been 90% r higher all but a few daays here and there when ity drops to the 70s or 80s. There are more black cattle here than any other kind...like in most places. They suffer no more or no less than Herefords or Charloais or any other British or Continental breed ( being the exception Chianina for Continentals. BUT... you won't find cattle in a pasture without trees or man-made shade, or water they can get in. People would get arrested and their livestock confiscated if those two conditions weren't met...as well they should.
Are you saying all cattle there have access to water that they can stand in. A high % of streams and many ponds have been fenced off here by either NRCS or the SWCD. Lots of wells and water systems instead.
I do believe some cattle do better if they can cool off in water during the hot days. I been culling some that can't take the heat.
Went to check one small herd this afternoon. All the eared cows, the red cows, and the Charolais cross cows were out grazing. The slick haired black ones were also. Many of the Angus were in the shade.
 

Travlr

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No, this is what happens when people use non-registered Angu bulls. Any Angus bull..or semen frpm them... will be tested for AM. Same thing as Poco Bueno bred QHs and HERDA. Or Imprseeive-bred QHs and HYPP. There is no excuse now days, for anyone to breed stallions or mares that carry those genes. The CAB program has NOT caused AM.

True, but no other breed association has done as much to promote those attributes like AAA has. They either do NOTHING to promote those breeds, or have bred them into nothing more than Angus crosses.
The entire point being that the CAB marketing strategy was and still is brilliant as a marketing strategy but has damaged both the angus breed and the entire industry. Tests being necessary to prevent genetic problems don't have to be done on genetically healthy animals.
 
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BC

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The reason most the cattle lost were probably black is because most the steers in the feedlot are black. Has a lot more to do with housing and abnormal weather than color.

If we're saying black hided cattle perform worse in the summer, presumably because of an increased heat transfer through absorption of the suns energy. Then black hided cattle must perform better in the winter for the same reason.
I had an opportunity to hear the CEO of the Texas Cattle Feeders address a Texas Farm Bureau conference this week. He said that this heat spell was the first of the year (early too) and most of the cattle had not shed their winter coats and acclimated. He said it was a perfect storm of everything that could go wrong.
 

andybob

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True, but no other breed association has done as much to promote those attributes like AAA has. They either do NOTHING to promote those breeds, or have bred them into nothing more than Angus crosses.

The Aberdeen Angus has been showcased since the beginning of the breed in Scotland, with famous stories about the founders showing Queen Victoria the herd - by walking the same quality animals in a circle around the barn and back to where the queen was sitting to give the impression of there being a greater number of Angus. Most Aberdeen Angus were marketed as "Scotch beef" fed on high levels of Barley from weaning until slaughter at 2 years, producing a very highly marbled beef for the top markets in the UK and Europe, my grandfather sold Scotch beef and Galloway from the moors from before WW1 to 1965. Top levels of marketing and quality controldate back to the breed pioneers and are still a part of breed protocols in all countries which have Aberdeen Angus in their national herds, but they are still at their best in temperate climates and are not suited to excessive heat as purebred.
 

Lee VanRoss

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andybob> Your words are verified by the fact Angus and Hereford were imported to improve the quality of the U S beef industry
and not the least to cut the losses from the inclement weather of the plains, (freezing to death)
Not sure where the dividing line would be but my guess would be the Arkansas river, with the bulk of the ear and hump to the south..
I have little doubt someone will fill me in.
 

andybob

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CAB "elegibility" is a crock of bull... I'd bet good money that if there were genetic tests done on packaged meat to determine breed at least half would be cross breeds and/or cattle with no angus in them. It's a marketing ploy to sell bulls and processors are taking advantage of it to split the industry and pay less for cattle that aren't black... and making more money as a result.
Of course this is a marketing ploy,in the UK any steer sired by a pedigree Aberdeen Angus can be marketed as Angus beef, this increases the market share for Angus bulls and semen. Other breeds have their markets with several heritage breeds also receiving premiums for their beef, one neighbour gets a good premium for Dexter beef, we get a similar premium to the Angus premium for North Devon beef, and when I was managing on the organic farm, the native strain Herefords had the same premium as the native strain Aberdeen Angus - it is all about marketing. Tom Lasater is a good example of someone promoting his Beefmasters to where they have become sought after in most countries with harsh tropical type climates. The main advantage the Aberdeen Angus has, is they have been promoted from the very beginning of the breed. And yes, the CAB system does allow for crosses with no Angus content,though these are probably in the minority, a ranch using Tuli/Wagyu crosses to produce 75% Wagyu, the black F1 steers were all paid the CAB premium, but these cases do not directly benefit Angus stud breeders, so I would assume the vast majority of CAB cattle have Angus content.
 

andybob

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"...I would assume the vast majority of CAB cattle have Angus content."
You are an ocean away on that guess.
I was assuming that, as most "other breeds" became black when Aberdeen Angus was the predominant black breed - with breeds such a Galloway not suitable for changing colour in slick haired breeds - that these were originally bred to Angus to bring in the colur, there are more naturally black breeds in more recent years, but not many in the USA twenty years ago. A marketing potential exists for breeding locally adapted F1 heifers for the terminal market if competing with Angus is not considered an option, take advantage of the demand for Angus beef by breeding red or non related black hybrids, possibly produced within a co operative, you often have to create your own markets if the popular trends do not work in your climate. I did a successful program in the 70's and 80's supplying a family run company with F1 stock for their breeding program.
 

Ebenezer

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If so, is 15% a measurable influence? What I am hearing now is that is that RA is gaining market ground as BA have not really kept quality like expected.
 

Warren Allison

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The entire point being that the CAB marketing strategy was and still is brilliant as a marketing strategy but has damaged both the angus breed and the entire industry.
I am sorry, but I just don't follow you. How does an ad that says "Buy certified Angus beef" damage a breed? Do you mean it somehow damages the animals? or are you saying it damaged the breed registry...the association? if so, then how? And. what industry was damaged by an ad? Cattle ranching? The food industry? And how does this ad campaign damage it?
 

Warren Allison

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Are you saying all cattle there have access to water that they can stand in. A high % of streams and many ponds have been fenced off here by either NRCS or the SWCD. Lots of wells and water systems instead.
Hi, Kenny. No. I said you won't find any pastures without EITHER shade OR water to get in. But, most pastures have both.
I do believe some cattle do better if they can cool off in water during the hot days. I been culling some that can't take the heat.
Went to check one small herd this afternoon. All the eared cows, the red cows, and the Charolais cross cows were out grazing. The slick haired black ones were also. Many of the Angus were in the shade.
What did you mean by "The slick haired black ones were also. Many of the Angus were in the shade."? What kind are the slick-haired black ones? I delivered my big stock trailer to the man who bought it last week. He has Brangus, Chi-Angus, Ultrablacks and Angus. His Angus this time of year are as slick as the others. Usually cattle and horses that are haired up this time of year, have health problem like worms, or are very old. I am guessing it isn't as hot and humid there in VA as here? Well, y'all probably have days that are , where as down here, this is the norm May - September.
 

Travlr

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I am sorry, but I just don't follow you. How does an ad that says "Buy certified Angus beef" damage a breed? Do you mean it somehow damages the animals? or are you saying it damaged the breed registry...the association? if so, then how? And. what industry was damaged by an ad? Cattle ranching? The food industry? And how does this ad campaign damage it?

Angus are as good (and bad) as any other breed of European cattle. You can take a top grading angus carcass and hang it in the same cooler with a top grading Hereford and no one will be able to tell which is which. The same with bottom grades.

But the marketing has created an artificial perception of higher quality which creates a demand for angus bulls. And not just angus, but "black". Black hides sell for higher prices due to "the ad". This means that other breeds have been forced to follow by creating black hides to be competitive. That means infusing black angus genetics into breeds that are historically other colors.

The problem being when a limited number of top performing bulls are used to produce herd sires through artificial insemination... and all of their sisters are being kept as replacements. I'd bet that 80% of black angus animals alive today have at least one bull in their pedigree in common within five generations. It might be 50% that have more than one bull shared in common.

This is why GAR Precision 1680 was so dangerous. He was a top bull with great stats and looked awesome... but his progeny was being used as herd sires and being used on heifers descended from him. The same thing is going on with other top bulls. And those inbred genetics are being carried into any breed striving for black hides in order to compete for dollars at the sale barn.

Curly calf syndrome is not the only anomaly associated with black angus. And other breeds are being damaged by close breeding as well.

Purebred animals and artificial insemination is a great way to spread good genetics and produce excellent animals... but it can lead to trouble, too. When three top bulls are at the top of the pyramid and most bulls beneath them are related to them... and then 80% of all replacement heifers are also related, the genetic potential for anomalies is increased to unacceptable levels. At least unacceptable to me.

THAT is why "the ad" is more than a simple marketing tool. The CBA program is damaging the breed (noted that those involved are trying through genetic testing to catch problems) and why the spread of "black hide marketing" has damaged the industry as a whole.

And just to get it out there, I LIKE black angus cattle as much as any other. I like them enough to criticize those that are playing with fire.
 
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Warren Allison

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But the marketing has created an artificial perception of higher quality which creates a demand for angus bulls. And not just angus, but "black". Black hides sell for higher prices due to "the ad". This means that other breeds have been forced to follow by creating black hides to be competitive. That means infusing black angus genetics into breeds that are historically other colors.
Yes, buyers pay more for black calves that might pass CAB standards, because CAB beef will bring more at the grocery store. But don't see how this program has caused any damage to the AAA, the Angus breed, or any other breed or their associations. Idiots that have turned other breeds into Angu mongrels have. And this was totally unnecessary, and out right stupid, really. The fools could have accomplished the same thing a lot easier and a lot quicker, by breeding their red Limosines and Gelbeivs, etc to Angus bulls, and kept their seed stock herds pure. Same with Simmental. Fools could have just bred their red & white Simmentals to Angus, and gotten BWF calves that would sell as well or better, than these "black Simmentals" that are all or mostly Angus. And again, kept the Simmental breeding stock pure.
THAT is why "the ad" is more than a simple marketing tool. The CBA program is damaging the breed (noted that those involved are trying through genetic testing to catch problems) and why the spread of "black hide marketing" has damaged the industry as a whole.
Again, any "damage" done to other breeds, or Angus, has nothing to do with the CAB program. It is caused by foolish, un-educated cattle breeders. Proctor & Gamble created Tide Pods to make it easier and not as messy to wash your clothes with these pre-measured "PODS" of Tide. They did not make them for idiots to eat. So, you can't blame P & G marketing for stupid kids eating them. Same thing as blaming an ad campaign for all the fool things that breeders, especially breeder of cattle other than Black Angus, have done the last 40 years or so.

And just to get it out there, I LIKE black angus cattle as much as any other. I like them enough to criticize those that are playing with fire.
 

Travlr

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Again, any "damage" done to other breeds, or Angus, has nothing to do with the CAB program. It is caused by foolish, un-educated cattle breeders.
The CBA people KNOW what is going on. They know the results and consequences of their actions. Unintended consequences are still consequences.
 

kenny thomas

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Hi, Kenny. No. I said you won't find any pastures without EITHER shade OR water to get in. But, most pastures have both.

What did you mean by "The slick haired black ones were also. Many of the Angus were in the shade."? What kind are the slick-haired black ones? I delivered my big stock trailer to the man who bought it last week. He has Brangus, Chi-Angus, Ultrablacks and Angus. His Angus this time of year are as slick as the others. Usually cattle and horses that are haired up this time of year, have health problem like worms, or are very old. I am guessing it isn't as hot and humid there in VA as here? Well, y'all probably have days that are , where as down here, this is the norm May - September.
The slick haired cows I own are usually a combination of breeds most time unknown. I also have a few black ones with some ear.
As far as it being hot and humid, high today was 96 with highest humidity of 100% and lowest of 40%. At 6pm all the cows with ear, the red cows, the black cross cows with slick hair, and the Charolais cross were out picking. A few pure Angus in this herd were laying in the shade. Cull cows are too high for a cow to be laying in the shade.
I know many Angus have been bred to handle the hot weather. But some of mine are not.
 

Nesikep

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The reason most the cattle lost were probably black is because most the steers in the feedlot are black. Has a lot more to do with housing and abnormal weather than color.

If we're saying black hided cattle perform worse in the summer, presumably because of an increased heat transfer through absorption of the suns energy. Then black hided cattle must perform better in the winter for the same reason.
except that you really don't get much sun in the winter so it doesn't matter as much as a good coat of hair
 

Ebenezer

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Maybe this is not acceptable but what is wrong if a cow is in the shade in the hottest part of the day, grazes in the AM and PM, breeds back, raises a decent calf year after year and is not a problem? I also question the sanity of folks who intentionally lay in the sun to get a tan!

Opinion: The CAB has insinuated to the Angus masses that end products are the driving force of the cattle business. And marbling has been chased enough to "Wagyu" the top Angus carcass bulls and herds in that case. Marbling comes with a tradeoff the last time I looked at genetic correlations to drop REA/muscling as marbling increases. I have seen a number of "stick figure" bulls with great data in service and with the right three letter herd prefix. Do that and push lower REA cattle with black hides to higher weights and you get more trim fat. In that process you never are supposed to ask if the terminal goals are hurting the cow functions at the farm or ranch. But the cow is not benefited as far as I can see of the folks doing it. I have noticed some leading Angus herds selling bulls with REA of 10.5" and some less. I also watch the REA/CWT on a lot of the test station reports and the info is not encouraging. Single trait selection or tunnel vision has had its impacts. That is why I think that folks are seeking other breeds to moderate the problems.
 

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