Black Charolais

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backhoeboogie

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There's a couple of gray ones here. The old man in the front of this community has run Chars for years. Those gray ones showed up in the last few years. The stand out in a crowd.
 

VLS_GUY

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I would like to see a source verification program for CAB if I sold Angus bulls for a living. If Angus cattle possess some unique meat quality all other breeds lack then why not defend the brand? Remember that even though Microsoft can't catch all software counterfeiters going after the cases they do does two things: discourage counterfeiting activity and shows that the trademark (brand) is is worth defending. If you do not defend your brand the courts will not think that you product has the advantages claimed (no economic worth) and won't consider trademark infringement civil cases as a result.
The fact that CAB is not going after those that misrepresent cattle and beef as Angus sourced suggests to me they are not confident in their ability to enforce any sort of brand or trademark rules though the courts due to lack of past enforcement (source verification) or uniqueness of the end product that can be documented.
 
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Frankie

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VLS_GUY":utno5jgx said:
I would like to see a source verification program for CAB if I sold Angus bulls for a living. If Angus cattle possess some unique meat quality all other breeds lack then why not defend the brand? Remember that even though Microsoft can't catch all software counterfeiters going after the cases they do does two things: discourage counterfeiting activity and shows that the trademark (brand) is is worth defending. If you do not defend your brand the courts will not think that you product has the advantages claimed (no economic worth) and won't consider trademark infringement civil cases as a result.
The fact that CAB is not going after those that misrepresent cattle and beef as Angus sourced suggests to me they are not confident in their ability to enforce any sort of brand or trademark rules though the courts due to lack of past enforcement (source verification) or uniqueness of the end product that can be documented.

Where are you getting your information? Wherever it is, you need to find a new source. :roll: CAB is proactive in portecting the brand. Their legal department handles trademark infringment cases.

The Assn licenses the sale of beef that meets the USDA-approved specifications. Once it meets those specifications, there's no fraud if it's being sold by a licensed agency. The American Angus Association can't trademark the word "Angus" or even "Black Angus" any more than the Hereford Assn can trademark the word "Hereford." They can and have trademarked Certified Angus Beef and they can and do go after unlicensed agencies selling meat as CAB.

CAB is a multimillion $$$ program. The AAA, packers, retailers, wholesalers, all make a lot of money from it. To suggest that they're not willing to protect it is wrong.
 

3waycross

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Frankie believe me when I say I am not picking a fight. Bud you just made the point that they are willing to protect the BRAND not the product.
 
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Frankie

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3waycross":2ezpg6zx said:
Frankie believe me when I say I am not picking a fight. Bud you just made the point that they are willing to protect the BRAND not the product.

What's to defend? If the PRODUCT meets the USDA-approved specifications, it's stamped and sold as CAB.
 

novaman

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Frankie":3lv33zmq said:
3waycross":3lv33zmq said:
Frankie believe me when I say I am not picking a fight. Bud you just made the point that they are willing to protect the BRAND not the product.

What's to defend? If the PRODUCT meets the USDA-approved specifications, it's stamped and sold as CAB.
Doesn't all meat have to meet USDA specs before it can be put on the shelf? You're suggesting that any beef could qualify as CAB.
 

dun

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novaman":3kbqnrgb said:
You're suggesting that any beef could qualify as CAB.
They've been psted on here a dozen time, READ THE CAB specs!
 

upfrombottom

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How does the certification process work?
Cattle undergo two evaluations before becoming CAB brand:

Step one: Live evaluation – Employees at licensed processing plants are approved by CAB and monitored by the USDA Agricultural Marketing Service to identify predominantly black cattle (at least 51 percent of the hair coat is black) or AngusSource® enrolled cattle. Typically half of the cattle entering licensed packing plants, meet the live specification and are eligible for further evaluation. Carcasses from these are marked with an "A" stamp to maintain identity throughout processing.

Step two: Carcass evaluation – "A" stamped carcasses are then presented to a USDA grader* for further evaluation based on the ten established quality specifications that must be met:

"Modest" or higher degree of marbling – Marbling, or intramuscular fat, appears as the small white flecks of fat finely interspersed throughout the lean and serves as the main contributor to beef flavor and juiciness. Most USDA Choice graded beef contains only the "Small" minimum marbling requirement.
"A" maturity for each, lean and skeletal characteristics– "A" maturity cattle, tend to produce beef that is superior in color, texture and firmness of the lean.
Medium or fine marbling texture –Marbling must be finely and evenly distributed throughout the lean muscle tissue for consistent beef flavor and juiciness.
Ribeye Area (REA) of 10.0 to 16.0 in2 – Ensuring more consistent sizing of boxed product.
Hot Carcass Weight (HCW) less than 1,000 lb. – Eliminating extremely heavy carcasses.
Fat Thickness (FT) less than 1.0 inch –Eliminating excessively fat product.
Moderately thick or thicker muscling – Eliminating thinly muscled, narrow carcasses and those with significant dairy breed influence. Superior muscle thickness implies a higher proportion of meat to bone.
Practically free of capillary ruptures – These small blood spots detract from the product's eye-appeal.
Free of "dark cutting" characteristics – Animals that are stressed prior to harvest may produce carcasses known as "dark cutters", where beef takes on a dark brown to purplish color that is not attractive in the meat case. Sometimes it may have an "off" flavor as well.
No hump exceeding 2 inches in height – Eliminating cattle with significant Brahman (Bos Indicus) influence. Research indicates this breed of cattle tends to produce beef that is inconsistent in tenderness. Only carcasses meeting these ten stringent quality requirements are marked "Accepted as Specified" by the USDA grader*. These carcasses are then processed as CAB brand and distributed by CAB licensees.

* In Canada, the standards are evaluated and monitored by the Canadian Beef Grading Agency.

How many carcasses meet CAB product specifications?
Less than 8% of beef meets all specifications and is labeled as CAB brand. Comparatively, approximately 55% of federally graded carcasses currently attain the USDA Choice Grade.
 

VLS_GUY

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The posting of the specifications for CAB qualified beef doesn't impress me. Remember the stated percentage of cattle that qualify for CAB is on the total U.S. kill that includes dairy cattle, cull cows, and every other non grain fed animal sent to the packer. The fact that YG 3 cattle can qualify for CAB is not very impressive. But again that is not my main criticism. When the name of you product has a cattle breed in it and a illustration of one of the breeds steers is commonly displayed with the name it is implied that the beef is from that breed. The fact that the regulations do not source verify beyond visual appraisal weakens the brand and tells me that the main benefactors from CAB are not the breeders but are the packers and retailers that sell the beef. If I can use a black bull from another breed and get the calves on CAB to suit the feeder and packers needs better then how does that not impact Angus breeders adversely by reducing bull demand?
Lastly, a large part of CAB sales comes from Hamburger (supplied to McDonald's, Carls Jr, Hardee's etc.). This meat is produced at grinders such as Miller meats from oceanic frozen lean and Angus fat trimmings. The final product is 60% lean, 40 % fat and is sold as pure Angus beef. The worst hamburger in the grocery store is 70/30. Generally the leaner hamburger is the higher the quality. My wife used to work for CKE corporate (Carl's Hardees etc) and filled me in what the meat used in the Angus burgers actually is. In short it is not considered a high quality product in the trade despite the hype.
 

backhoeboogie

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VLS_GUY":18u8ytps said:
In short it is not considered a high quality product in the trade despite the hype.

Ballpark Franks makes it work. They have 100% angus franks. Check it out at the check out stand. Saw a lady buying about a dozen packs of them. Probably more tender or something :roll:
 

DOC HARRIS

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HEREFORD ROADHOG":1uliuq00 said:
In my book the Black Or Red Charlois should be listed under CROSSBREED. just like Black Herefords,Black Simmentals, Black Shorthorns or any other PRUEBRED variety that is not pureblooded. :???: What really gets me is all the "certified Angus beef" that everyone sells.Just because it came out of a black cow dosen't make it Angus. :mad:
SHRHog- You are correct. However, according to the Certified Angus Beef requirements it does satisfy the specifications. So why the :mad: ??! With some dedicated effort, anyone has the ability to improve their marketing skills by using an Angus Bull ( of OPTIMUM quality ), IF they select the right cow genetics to which to breed the bull! Even good Hereford cows can establish a quality breeding Terminal program for increased marketing income! What is the rationale for beating your head against a wall in anger when it would be to your advantage to "join 'em" instead of battling the genetic facts? The Angus breed has MANY optimum Phenotype and Genotype traits that translate and deliver PROFIT to the bottom lines of many producers! So do OTHER breeds which have black hides!

EVERY breed has some great animals who can produce a high quality carcass, and by capitalizing on selecting a GOOD Angus bull for half of your calve's genetics you can sooth and salve your :mad:, and the bottom line, end-of-the-year PROFIT margin can look like :lol2: :nod: :banana:

DOC HARRIS
 

upfrombottom

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There is another way to look at it: Over 92% of all beef processed in the US does not meet CAB specs. With Black Angus the most popular breed in the US, you would have to believe that not all Black cattle including Angus will meet the specs.
 
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Frankie

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upfrombottom":1i9gdt5s said:
There is another way to look at it: Over 92% of all beef processed in the US does not meet CAB specs. With Black Angus the most popular breed in the US, you would have to believe that not all Black cattle including Angus will meet the specs.

Of course not all Angus meet the specs. But as the Angus influence in the nation's cowherd has grown, so has the % qualifying for CAB. I think we're up to about 20% qualification these days. The first time I read the % that qualified for CAB it was 18%. That was probably 15 years ago. Then the % started dropping as other breeds turned black. Now that we're seeing a huge use of Angus (not generic black), the % is again going up. There are herds qualifying at 50%+ CAB because they are using straightbred Angus, plus have a good management system, plus feeding in feedlots that know how to feed those kind of cattle. (Just in case you don't know there are CAB certified feedlots out there.) We've know for years from retained ownership programs that cattle sired by Angus bulls met the CAB specs at a considerably higher rate than cattle of unknown breeding or were non-Angus sired.
 
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Frankie

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VLS_GUY":2v6x5ynb said:
The posting of the specifications for CAB qualified beef doesn't impress me. Remember the stated percentage of cattle that qualify for CAB is on the total U.S. kill that includes dairy cattle, cull cows, and every other non grain fed animal sent to the packer. The fact that YG 3 cattle can qualify for CAB is not very impressive. But again that is not my main criticism. When the name of you product has a cattle breed in it and a illustration of one of the breeds steers is commonly displayed with the name it is implied that the beef is from that breed. The fact that the regulations do not source verify beyond visual appraisal weakens the brand and tells me that the main benefactors from CAB are not the breeders but are the packers and retailers that sell the beef. If I can use a black bull from another breed and get the calves on CAB to suit the feeder and packers needs better then how does that not impact Angus breeders adversely by reducing bull demand?

So where do you stand on Certified Hereford Beef? Do they get the same criticism as CAB?

Lastly, a large part of CAB sales comes from Hamburger (supplied to McDonald's, Carls Jr, Hardee's etc.). This meat is produced at grinders such as Miller meats from oceanic frozen lean and Angus fat trimmings. The final product is 60% lean, 40 % fat and is sold as pure Angus beef. The worst hamburger in the grocery store is 70/30. Generally the leaner hamburger is the higher the quality. My wife used to work for CKE corporate (Carl's Hardees etc) and filled me in what the meat used in the Angus burgers actually is. In short it is not considered a high quality product in the trade despite the hype.

McDonalds, Carls, Jr, etc., don't sell Certified Angus beef. They sell "angus" burgers. When a carcass is stamped with a branded beef roll, it receives the premium for every pound, but not all of it is sold as branded beef. More of a CAB carcass is marketed as branded beef than any other. There are CAB cold cuts, CAB convience foods, CAB hamburger, etc. These guys sell a very good CAB Frankfurter:

http://www.usinger.com/

Item 7352: Certified Angus Beef ® Franks (Olympic Frankfurter, 4 links to lb., 4 pcs. per pkg., skinless, COV)
$4.99 per pound

Perhaps you'd want to actually LEARN something about CAB rather than just make it up? If so, here's a link for you:

http://www.angusjournal.com/ArticlePDF/ ... 8%20AJ.pdf

To further your education a bit more, here's a link to the USDA page with specifications for ALL USDA-certified branded beef programs:

http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/ams.fet ... acct=lsstd

You might take a few minutes and see how many of those programs have the word "Angus" in their name. Pretty impressive, I think.
 

Angus In Texas

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In my opinion it all boils down to quality marketing but no matter how good the marketing, you have to back it up in the end or it won't endure over time.

Even if ALL beef that is sold as CAB is not truly Angus, it is driving the demand for angus cattle up and therefore, in time, the percentage of cattle qualifying for CAB that are not truly Angus will decrease. Or at least theoretically.

Until someone can develop a method to do it better than CAB, CAB will remain at the top.
 

VLS_GUY

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The fact is that the vast majority of consumers do not know or care to know about the difference between CAB and other ************* beef programs. To them the Angus beef in a fast food burger is the same thing as CAB. It come from an Angus cow right? You have to look at the big picture just not whether the current rules of the program are being obeyed. How can Angus breeders benefit more from the program?
The fact that you refer to hot dogs that contain CAB does not help your case. All beef hot dogs are the best of the lot but are still not considered a high quality meat product (lots of fat, salt, etc.). Putting the CAB label on hot dogs would like putting a BMW emblem on a Yugo and marketing the result as a BMW; all you are doing is hurting the BMW brand. Right now the highest priced branded beef in this town is Laura's Lean. Laura's Lean is not perfect with some quality missteps but they have been consistent in masrketing leaner high end product.
In my opinion all breed based beef programs have the same two problems: being vulnerable to market encroachment and weak market power versus other parts of the production chain (packers and retailers). It would be far better for one quality beef program exist (merge them) so that producers can have better market power versus the rest of the marketing chain. Right now the most direct benefit purebred breeders get from breed based beef marketing is the licensing money paid the the breed association. This lowers the cost of running the association but is a very small piece of the pie. If you had the requirement that all the calves be all least half Angus for example the benefits to the member of the breed association would be much more direct.
 
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Frankie

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VLS_GUY":2k25hfx2 said:
The fact is that the vast majority of consumers do not know or care to know about the difference between CAB and other ************* beef programs. To them the Angus beef in a fast food burger is the same thing as CAB. It come from an Angus cow right? You have to look at the big picture just not whether the current rules of the program are being obeyed. How can Angus breeders benefit more from the program?

I agree that the vast majority of consumers don't care where their beef comes from. YOU are the one claiming that CAB will bite the dust when consumers discover it doesn't come from pure Angus cows. :lol: If the fast food "angus" burger is better than the generic fast food burger, it's better for Angus. No one buys a $6 burger at Carls, Jr. and expects a steak dinner. And those $6 burgers are good.

The fact that you refer to hot dogs that contain CAB does not help your case. All beef hot dogs are the best of the lot but are still not considered a high quality meat product (lots of fat, salt, etc.). Putting the CAB label on hot dogs would like putting a BMW emblem on a Yugo and marketing the result as a BMW; all you are doing is hurting the BMW brand. Right now the highest priced branded beef in this town is Laura's Lean. Laura's Lean is not perfect with some quality missteps but they have been consistent in masrketing leaner high end product.

I don't have to make a case; I'm simply enjoying poking holes in YOUR case. Don't know where you are, but Laura's Lean doesn't sell nearly the pounds that CAB sells. CAB sold over half a BILLION pounds last year. I doubt Laura's does anywhere near that business. Usinger's hot dogs were served to the US Olympic Teams. Good publicity is worth a lot and a tie with the US Olympic team is the sort of publicity the CAB brand is looking for. Yeah, Laura's "misstep" cost them the approval of the American Heart Association. That was NOT the sort of publicity a branded beef program is looking for. Didn't Laura sell the company right after that? While there are CAB "Prime" and "Natural" lines, we don't need CAB to be the highest priced beef on the market. Keeping the price reasonable should increase demand.

In my opinion all breed based beef programs have the same two problems: being vulnerable to market encroachment and weak market power versus other parts of the production chain (packers and retailers). It would be far better for one quality beef program exist (merge them) so that producers can have better market power versus the rest of the marketing chain. Right now the most direct benefit purebred breeders get from breed based beef marketing is the licensing money paid the the breed association. This lowers the cost of running the association but is a very small piece of the pie. If you had the requirement that all the calves be all least half Angus for example the benefits to the member of the breed association would be much more direct.

Your opinion is your opinion. Everybody's got one. 30 years ago some Angus folks had the opinion that consumers would pay more for a premium beef and started CAB. That worked. Otherwise, your comments are foolish. The Angus Assn owns CAB. They don't own or control any other "angus" beef. How could they merge or control them? Personally, I like having all those other "angus/black angus" branded beef programs. It simply creates more demand for black bulls. The branded beef business is like black bulls. There are choices for consumers at the meat counter. And there are choices for cattlemen in the black bull pen. Over time, CAB has stood out as the branded beef of choice for consumers (half a billion pounds) and Angus bulls dominate the bull market in the US. Something like 80% of the cowherds in the US have some Angus influence.

But here's the question: Why aren't you making the same complaints about Certified Hereford Beef?
 

backhoeboogie

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Frankie":6kum5j43 said:
No one buys a $6 burger at Carls, Jr. and expects a steak dinner. And those $6 burgers are good.

Are those angus hot dogs better too? Has CAB considered one of those Pepsi commercial type taste tests?
 

dun

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I think this is the longest any discussion that mentioned CAB has stayed relatively civil and hasn;t been locked
 

backhoeboogie

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dun":2ttotfsg said:
I think this is the longest any discussion that mentioned CAB has stayed relatively civil and hasn;t been locked

My last post was meant totally in jest and I hope folks on both sides see it that way. The debate has gone all the way down to selling hot dogs in the store shelves. That is amazing. It is also amusing to me personally.
 
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