Black charolais?

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MikeC

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txag":sesj26qg said:
MikeC":sesj26qg said:
farmer rich":sesj26qg said:
You cant say with 100% certainty that a hereford is 100% pure just because its red, but you can say with 100% certainty that its not if it is black.

That might not be a factual statement either Rich. The genome of cattle has been mapped but they do not know what each chromosome and gene is responsible for as of yet.
But I will say that your statement is "Highly Probable". Very highly.

what you're leaving out is the ability to dna for parentage. i'd be willing to bet the first black herefords will not dna to two red parents. :D

do you happen to know if the first black charolais was dna'd to confirm parentage to white parents?

I do not but will ask. I have had red calves from two white parents though. They became white over time.
 

txag

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MikeC":1seporqe said:
I have had red calves from two white parents though. They became white over time.

never black? :lol: :lol:
 

MikeC

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From the Canadian Charolais Assoc. website:

2003 By Law Proposed Amendments



PROPOSED AMENDMENT #1

Article XVIII



STANDARDS FOR REGISTRATION AND RECORDATION

1. (o) Any animal born after December 31, 1994 which is of a colour other than white or light cream shall be identified with the letter "Q" at the beginning of its registration or recordation number. Any animal born before January 1, 1995 which had the red designation on its pedigree pursuant to Article XVIII (1) (l) (RED factor cattle in the Canadian Charolais Herd Book) prior to that clause being deleted from these by-laws shall be identified henceforth in the Canadian Charolais Herd Book with the letter "Q" at the beginning of its registration or recordation number.



REPLACE WITH:

1. (o) It is mandatory for any animal born after December 31, 1994 which is of a colour other than white or light cream to be identified with the letter "Q" at the beginning of its registration number. Any animal born before January 1, 1995 which had the red designation on its pedigree pursuant to Article XVIII (1) (l) (RED factor cattle in the Canadian Charolais Herd Book) prior to that clause being deleted from these by-laws must be identified henceforth in the Canadian Charolais Herd Book with the letter "Q" at the beginning of its registration number.



MOTION MADE BY:

DR. BRYAN HICKS

MARK ORAM
 

ollie

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I don't know how to describe the color but the charolais I saw in the late 90's that they called black were actually a dark brown (red).
 

txag

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Mike, I'm on SLOW dialup & can't get the pdf file to open. i'm waiting on the pics on the Laue website. i do see that they mention "purebred" black Charolais. i admit i'm not that familiar with the Charolais Assoc rules & regulations. from your earlier remark, they allow breeding up, I s'pose? if so, i see the Lauer website mentions "purebred" black. that's a different ballgame than "fullblood" black, isn't it?

what else am I s'posed to see in his pedigree? that he was out of two black parents? that still doesn't tell me about the first black Charolais.

MikeC, it's really not a big deal. if the Charolais Assoc allows breeding up, then it's easily understandable that there could be a black Charolais. i only jumped in the discussion because of the black hereford comment. if the Charolais Assoc (& members) don't have a problem with registering blacks, then i don't either. i'm proud of the AHA for sticking to their guns and not allowing breeding up and not recognizing black animals as herefords.
 

MikeC

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txag, It's not a big deal to me either. I don't care either way.
I think it is possible to have black and red chars descend from purebred white char animals by perpetuating the absent diluters.
Just can't figure out why one would.


If you do not, so be it.
 

CMR

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boy i knew this would open up a can of worms. ok here it goes, I'll try to answer all questions but probably will not. 1st , all "purebred" charolais are 31/32, only "fullbloods" are 100% . So yes our blacks came from an angus cow x white char bull = grey heifer 1/2 blood registered, bred to a tan char bull 31/32 = grey char heifer 3/4 blood registered, bred to a red factor 31/32 char bull = black 7/8 bull registered. The grey heifer had a black gene and a diluter gene, gave black gene to calf, black is dominant thus a black bull with a dominant black gene and a recessive red gene. Mated him to our purebred red char females = 15/16 calves, half of them red and half black . Kept up breeding and you end up with 31/32 (purebreds). Exactly how sim/limo/salers/gelv etc ended up with blacks.
By the way, the picture of black char bull on this thread is not a true black char, if his dna was checked he would have what they call a wild gene, not a true black gene. He comes from reds and does not have a true black gene.
The American Char Assoc. does not recognize "red or black" char, but the Canadian Char Assoc does. There are alot of red char in the USA now but alot have CAN papers.
We parentaged our animals all the way up because we knew there would be skeptics, alot are embryos.
 

MikeC

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CMR, Glad you settled that for us. Thanks. But why do you want them black? Any purpose other than wanting to be trendy?

Found this in a book about Chars:
The gene or genes causing white have not all been discovered yet. White, as in the Charolais is actually caused by an epistatic or masking gene. They are actually red, ee, but is not showing its red because of the effects of some other gene, common to Charolais. When this Charolais allele occurs in homozygous form, the animal is white. When it is only heterozygous the calf color can be red or grey or even white.
 

CMR

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MikeC
To make a long story short, demand is why we want them black. many commercial breeders with black/bwf cows like char as a terminal cross but many wont use a white bull because of the greys which you get some rat tails, so they wont use a char bull. But with a black bull they will get blacks and a few reds if the bull is single black and the cows have a red recessive gene,but if he is homozygous then they get all black calves.

farmerich
No offense taken, the commercial advantage is just what I explained to MikeC
No offense intended but,are you saying that black limo/sim/salers/gelb etc. are "lazy and dishonest"
 
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farmer rich

farmer rich

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CMR":1libwp6j said:
No offense intended but,are you saying that black limo/sim/salers/gelb etc. are "lazy and dishonest"

Yes. My reasons are as follows, please correct me if any details are wrong, I do not pretend to be an expert on the cattle industry in your country.

The reason black is sought after by commercial breeders is because buyers assume that a black animal has a certain percentage of angus blood. They want this angus influence because the animal is more likely to grade choice due to a high amount of marbling.
Continentals have poor marbling by comparison but greater yeild grades.
Hide colour has no effect on marbling and so selection for hide colour is pointless, and single trait selection can be detrimental to the breed as a whole.

To repeat my earlier statement.
If you want to improve your pedigree cattle you should select cattle within that breed which exell in the traits you wish to improve. In this case, instead of attempting to improve the marbling qualities of the charolais by breeding for this trait breeders have simply outcrossed to another breed to change the hide colour. In my opinion this is lazy and dishonest.
 

MikeC

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farmer rich":1llvpnau said:
CMR":1llvpnau said:
No offense intended but,are you saying that black limo/sim/salers/gelb etc. are "lazy and dishonest"

Yes. My reasons are as follows, please correct me if any details are wrong, I do not pretend to be an expert on the cattle industry in your country.

The reason black is sought after by commercial breeders is because buyers assume that a black animal has a certain percentage of angus blood. They want this angus influence because the animal is more likely to grade choice due to a high amount of marbling.
Continentals have poor marbling by comparison but greater yeild grades.
Hide colour has no effect on marbling and so selection for hide colour is pointless, and single trait selection can be detrimental to the breed as a whole.

To repeat my earlier statement.
If you want to improve your pedigree cattle you should select cattle within that breed which exell in the traits you wish to improve. In this case, instead of attempting to improve the marbling qualities of the charolais by breeding for this trait breeders have simply outcrossed to another breed to change the hide colour. In my opinion this is lazy and dishonest.

Rich, Thanks for your comments as they are well spoken. But to say that commercial men want black cattle because they are trying to trick their buyers into thinking they are selling angus calves is not in it's entirety correct. Cattlemen are trying to sell pens of calves that are uniform. The easiest and most obvious way is to make them all "Black" is because of the dominance of the black color genes. It is much more attractive to have a pen of calves the same color and easier done by using a black bull. A white bull will produce yellow, red, grey, and white calves in most mixed breed herds. A black bull will have mostly black calves.
The buyers who have fallen for some of the black tricks have become very wary. The word has gotten around. In fact I have seen "Buckskins" sell higher than blacks because they know for a fact that the calves are 1/2 herf X 1/2 char. Why do you think that angus breeders are testing for the red genes? Because the heterozygous black Angus bulls will occasionally throw red calves.

Making your calf crop "uniform" is not necessarily "lazy and dishonest" and the man helping you to achieve that goal is not either.
 

CMR

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Very well said MikeC
My customers who use black bulls sell them as out of black char bulls and angus cows. MY customers with red cows use white bulls and all the calves are tans,customers with tan cows use mostly tan bulls to keep the calves tan, uniformity is key like mike says because that is the way they are sorted to be sold, but groups of uniform color and type bring premiums. Customers with mixed colored cows also like black char bulls because like MikeC said the black gene is dominant so hence the consistent color. With our blacks we still select for the same qualities as our reds and whites, char is a terminal breed with performance and yield.
 

Rustler9

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Eclipse 204H Polled first son of the first black Charolais female
Dam: LLW Miss Aberdeen the second purebred Black Charolais female in history

sounds like Angus?? Not that I care either but that's what it sounds like to me.
 

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