Black charolais?

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farmer rich

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CMR":rhlql2rz said:
have exportable semen on the only homozygous black Char bull that I know of anywhere. Had 40+ calves from him this spring this spring, all black but 2 greys. Can view some of our blacks on web site http://www.char-maineranching.com. None of this years calves yet, but soon. The ranchers with black cows absolutely love them. Took 4 black bulls to USA fall of 2002 they all wanted more, but like you said not for a while.


These are of course my own opinions and many will not share them.

I dont intend any offence, but unless that black came from a natural mutation, the bull is not a charolais. Back in that animals pedigree is an angus or a holstein, or some other black breed.
I still cannot understand why any breeder of pedigree cattle would mess around with the genetic integrity of his animals in order to introduce a trait that gives the animal no real commercial advantage. If you want black cattle, keep a black breed.

If you want to improve your pedigree cattle you should select cattle within that breed which exell in the traits you wish to improve. There are no shortcuts, outcrossing to another breed is at best lazy and at worst, dishonest.

In my opinion the way to combine the qualities of two different breeds is to cross them, but this should be labeled as a cross.

I am interested to hear the thoughts of the rest of the board on this topic.
 

Caustic Burno

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farmer rich":1pg4m53u said:
CMR":1pg4m53u said:
have exportable semen on the only homozygous black Char bull that I know of anywhere. Had 40+ calves from him this spring this spring, all black but 2 greys. Can view some of our blacks on web site http://www.char-maineranching.com. None of this years calves yet, but soon. The ranchers with black cows absolutely love them. Took 4 black bulls to USA fall of 2002 they all wanted more, but like you said not for a while.


These are of course my own opinions and many will not share them.

I dont intend any offence, but unless that black came from a natural mutation, the bull is not a charolais. Back in that animals pedigree is an angus or a holstein, or some other black breed.
I still cannot understand why any breeder of pedigree cattle would mess around with the genetic integrity of his animals in order to introduce a trait that gives the animal no real commercial advantage. If you want black cattle, keep a black breed.

If you want to improve your pedigree cattle you should select cattle within that breed which exell in the traits you wish to improve. There are no shortcuts, outcrossing to another breed is at best lazy and at worst, dishonest.

In my opinion the way to combine the qualities of two different breeds is to cross them, but this should be labeled as a cross.

I am interested to hear the thoughts of the rest of the board on this topic.

Very well said Farmer .
 

Ryan

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Would this be in the same boat as the Black Herefords?
 

Rustler9

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All of these breeds that are not traditionally black have added black genetics from a black breed. Be it Angus, Holstein whatever. I'm sorry but they just need to admit it. Heck, even Beefmasters have gone black. I used to raise purebred Beefmasters-never had a black one pop out. I have a few Beefmaster crosses now. I'm not knocking them, I still like them. I'm not knocking any other breed either but I think that they should admit if they added some other genetics to their respective breeds. The only Charolais that I've ever seen that weren't white (reddish, yellow, smutty gray) were crosses. They may have added other breeds to get the red and black Chars then kept breeding them back to Chars and selecting for certain colors but they would still have a trace of other blood in them. I guess most breed associations allow for breeding up-some don't. I'm not sure about Charolais.
 

MikeC

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Ryan":1erfwhs2 said:
Would this be in the same boat as the Black Herefords?
Not to my knowledge. Most Chars have a "Diluter gene" that makes the skin colorless and some do not. It's a genetic defect. But only detriminal to color.
The American International Charolais Association differentiates between White, Red, and Black.
Anything that is not white and pink-nosed are registered under the "Red Factor" designation on the registration papers.
 

El_Putzo

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MikeC":1ryx5kjg said:
The American International Charolais Association differentiates between White, Red, and Black.
Anything that is not white and pink-nosed are registered under the "Red Factor" designation on the registration papers.

Just curious, but is it American or International? To my knowledge it can't be both. Are there 2 different associations?[/b]
 

Ryan

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MikeC":c4ofnsmb said:
Ryan":c4ofnsmb said:
Would this be in the same boat as the Black Herefords?
Not to my knowledge. Most Chars have a "Diluter gene" that makes the skin colorless and some do not. It's a genetic defect. But only detriminal to color.
The American International Charolais Association differentiates between White, Red, and Black.
Anything that is not white and pink-nosed are registered under the "Red Factor" designation on the registration papers.

So, are you saying that the American International Charolais Association recognizes black Charolais, as Charolais? Whereas the Hereford Associations do not recognize Black Herefords?
 
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farmer rich

farmer rich

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El_Putzo":prnytz8j said:
MikeC":prnytz8j said:
The American International Charolais Association differentiates between White, Red, and Black.
Anything that is not white and pink-nosed are registered under the "Red Factor" designation on the registration papers.

Just curious, but is it American or International? To my knowledge it can't be both. Are there 2 different associations?[/b]

I was just about to ask this, how many countries does it cover?
A bit like the world series right?
How come an american team always wins that? :lol:

An interesting point though, how many charolais associations are there in North America and do they all register coloured cattle?
 

bigbull338

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i know 2 guys that breed black beefmasters. they love them. one sells weaned black heifer calves for $1600 . 3 months ago went with a friend to get 2 reg beefmaster bulls red an black. he gave $2000 for the black bull an $4000 for the red bull. those bulls are built rigt sheath doent dragg the ground . like most beefmaster bulls . says the black bull will thow most all black calves. the bulls have the breeding to back their looks up. scott
 

txag

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MikeC":1cowwy9l said:
Not to my knowledge. Most Chars have a "Diluter gene" that makes the skin colorless and some do not. It's a genetic defect. But only detriminal to color.
The American International Charolais Association differentiates between White, Red, and Black.
Anything that is not white and pink-nosed are registered under the "Red Factor" designation on the registration papers.

so, Mike, are you saying you don't have a problem with a black Charolais? this one is only black because he doesn't have a "diluter gene"?

charolais5.jpg


i'd say it's just like the black hereford. the black came from somewhere else.
 

MikeC

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farmer rich":136ie6zh said:
El_Putzo":136ie6zh said:
MikeC":136ie6zh said:
The American International Charolais Association differentiates between White, Red, and Black.
Anything that is not white and pink-nosed are registered under the "Red Factor" designation on the registration papers.

Just curious, but is it American or International? To my knowledge it can't be both. Are there 2 different associations?[/b]

I was just about to ask this, how many countries does it cover?
A bit like the world series right?
How come an american team always wins that? :lol:

An interesting point though, how many charolais assosiations are there in North America and do they all register coloured cattle?

The name of the Association is the "American International Charolais Association" look it up at; http://www.charolaisusa.com
There is only ONE charolais association in the USA.
Other country's associations are called "Affiliates".
I have written too many checks to the "AICA" to not have noticed.
 
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farmer rich

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Looked up that website and tried to find a breed standard, seems that black animals can be registered, but only as charolais cross.


Registration Disqualifications

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. For purebreds 31/32 and up and notwithstanding parentage verification by DNA testing:
a. color is white, light straw, or light cream with pink skin
b. animal must not have a dark nose
c. animal must not be spotted
d. animal must not have excessive dark skin pigmentation
e. animal cannot have an unidentified sire or dam

2. For Charolais-cross under 31/32:
a. except for the first cross, the sire and dam must be registered or recorded in AICA herdbook
b. sire on first cross must not be less than 31/32 Charolais
c. sire having less than the 3/4 Charolais breeding is not eligible for recordation.
 

MikeC

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txag, Black charolais are not a problem to me because I do not raise them. Mine are white and although some full blood calves are born red and become white as they get older.
I do know that the gene pool for Black Charolais will be very small and will be inbred tremendously soon. There's just not enough of them.
There is NO advantage to having black Charolais. Except for novelty.
 

txag

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MikeC":e0g2l1y5 said:
txag, Black charolais are not a problem to me because I do not raise them. Mine are white and although some full blood calves are born red and become white as they get older.
I do know that the gene pool for Black Charolais will be very small and will be inbred tremendously soon. There's just not enough of them.
There is NO advantage to having black Charolais. Except for novelty.

Mike, i guess what i'm trying to ask is do you believe they're really Charolais or Charolais crosses?

that's exactly what black herefords are to me. hereford crosses. they will never be 100% hereford. maybe 99.999999 but never 100 which according to the AHA means they're not herefords.
 

MikeC

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txag":qsn55wsq said:
MikeC":qsn55wsq said:
txag, Black charolais are not a problem to me because I do not raise them. Mine are white and although some full blood calves are born red and become white as they get older.
I do know that the gene pool for Black Charolais will be very small and will be inbred tremendously soon. There's just not enough of them.
There is NO advantage to having black Charolais. Except for novelty.

Mike, i guess what i'm trying to ask is do you believe they're really Charolais or Charolais crosses?

that's exactly what black herefords are to me. hereford crosses. they will never be 100% hereford. maybe 99.999999 but never 100 which according to the AHA means they're not herefords.

I have had it explained to me by some Canadian Charolais Breeders (which is where the black ones are) that they are 100%. I could not say for sure. You cannot either.
At present there is no test for homozygosity in white genes as there is for black. Not enough is known of the diluter gene.
When you say you have a 100% Hereford you are taking the word of many, many, many people who bred before you. Can you say with 100% accuracy that they are ALL honest and correct?
But then again, 99.999999 is close enough for me.
 
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farmer rich

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You cant say with 100% certainty that a hereford is 100% pure just because its red, but you can say with 100% certainty that its not if it is black.
 

MikeC

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Ryan":gszgu484 said:
MikeC":gszgu484 said:
Ryan":gszgu484 said:
Would this be in the same boat as the Black Herefords?
Not to my knowledge. Most Chars have a "Diluter gene" that makes the skin colorless and some do not. It's a genetic defect. But only detriminal to color.
The American International Charolais Association differentiates between White, Red, and Black.
Anything that is not white and pink-nosed are registered under the "Red Factor" designation on the registration papers.

So, are you saying that the American International Charolais Association recognizes black Charolais, as Charolais? Whereas the Hereford Associations do not recognize Black Herefords?

No, the AICA does not recognize blacks as fullbloods. But the Canadian Charolais Association (CCA which is an affiliate) does.

The AICA does recognize 31/32 as purebred though. Sound confusing? It does to me too!
 

MikeC

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farmer rich":2l7tvdpa said:
You cant say with 100% certainty that a hereford is 100% pure just because its red, but you can say with 100% certainty that its not if it is black.

That might not be a factual statement either Rich. The genome of cattle has been mapped but they do not know what each chromosome and gene is responsible for as of yet.
But I will say that your statement is "Highly Probable". Very highly.
 

txag

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MikeC":3ln38ce1 said:
farmer rich":3ln38ce1 said:
You cant say with 100% certainty that a hereford is 100% pure just because its red, but you can say with 100% certainty that its not if it is black.

That might not be a factual statement either Rich. The genome of cattle has been mapped but they do not know what each chromosome and gene is responsible for as of yet.
But I will say that your statement is "Highly Probable". Very highly.

what you're leaving out is the ability to dna for parentage. i'd be willing to bet the first black herefords will not dna to two red parents. :D

do you happen to know if the first black charolais was dna'd to confirm parentage to white parents?
 
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