Black Charolais?

[Cress27]

How did they come up with a black Charolais? Wouldn't it have to have some kind of angus in the wood shed. With that being said has anyone used one they have me intrigued

 

[lms0229]

never heard of a black Charolais but I would think it wouldn't have a lot of Charolais in it to be truly black in color. Charolais carry 2 genes for dilution so that is why when you breed a Charolais and black Angus you get a smokey color similar to Murray Grey. So if you would have to then breed that F1 to a homozygous black to maybe not have a dilution factor. Charolais are red but because they carry 2 dominant dilution genes it removes all the pigment. At minimum you would have to have an F2 or F3 to start not having a dilution coloration but then you have diluted the Charolais so much its not really a Charolais but more Angus... so idk

 

[SBMF 2015]

Exactly what Ims0229 said. We run blk Angus, Charolais, and F1 smoke cows. When you cross those smoke cows back on an Angus bull you'll start getting black hides calves.

 

[Dsth]

I cross some of my red angus with Charolais bulls but they have so far been mostly white calves with a slight red color. My wife calls them pink when they are young but turn white with age. interested on where you saw black Charolais info.

 

[cbcr]

There are a couple of Black Charolais breeders in Kansas. Laue Charolais Ranch and Burt Cattle Company.

Here is an article that explains some of turning the Charolais black!
https://www.producer.com/1998/04/charolais-breeders-turn-cattle-black/

 

[Ky hills]

Back in the 80's and 90's when I had Charolais, never heard of anyone breeding for black ones. They have always had a breeding up program. I did see few red factored ones and had one born here too. Due to the breeding up program you can get quite a bit of somewhat out of character colorations like dark colored noses. There are sections on the registration applications for color of body, nose and tail switch or at least 25 or 30 years ago there was.

 

[Davemk]

The first charolais in the USA were bred up from a mix of longhorns and hereford. They came from mexico and the Pugibet herd.


http://afs.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle/charolais/

 

[lms0229]

The article talks about how their "black" Charolais have tan colored rings around their nose etc... well that means its not black that means it has wild type coloring, which wild type is its own category separate from red and black. All modern day cattle descended from Aurochs that had wild type coloring. A lot of Jerseys carry wild type and Jersey colored bulls are a very good example of wild type especially the dark ones.

Im just not i guess understanding the purpose or benefit? There are a lot of other breeds that can crunch the scales that when crossed with Angus will give you black in the first cross while not impacting your carcass quality as much as a Charolais would. A lot of people use Charolais for their dilution factor to help with heat tolerance, growth and pounds or for cool colors like blues, silvers, blue roads etc...

Also, a lot of Angus carry brindle genes that aren't expressed until they are in the presence of red or wild type so you could end up with brindle cattle, which I personally like.. but all French Charolais are red so there should be zero wild type coloring.

 

[Ky hills]

The article talks about how their "black" Charolais have tan colored rings around their nose etc... well that means its not black that means it has wild type coloring, which wild type is its own category separate from red and black. All modern day cattle descended from Aurochs that had wild type coloring. A lot of Jerseys carry wild type and Jersey colored bulls are a very good example of wild type especially the dark ones.

Im just not i guess understanding the purpose or benefit? There are a lot of other breeds that can crunch the scales that when crossed with Angus will give you black in the first cross while not impacting your carcass quality as much as a Charolais would. A lot of people use Charolais for their dilution factor to help with heat tolerance, growth and pounds or for cool colors like blues, silvers, blue roads etc...

Also, a lot of Angus carry brindle genes that aren't expressed until they are in the presence of red or wild type so you could end up with brindle cattle, which I personally like.. but all French Charolais are red so there should be zero wild type coloring.

This is interesting, I'm not disputing anything g you have said because once there is crossbreeding involved lots of color patterns can come out of the woodwork. Red Limousins have somewhat lighter "ring" like markings around their eyes and muzzle. On the wild type genes in Angus that one is a quite timely topic. I have been under the impression that one is like other traits that are disqualifications for registration. We have a commercial solid black SimAngus cow that has always had solid black calves from Angus and typical BWF from Hereford bulls. We retained a daughter from her out of our Registered Angus bull. I was expecting her to have a BWF calf because her mother has never had a red calf. To my surprise she had a red white faced calf. Now even more surprising is that at a few months old the calf is showing very noticeable brindle markings. The bull was a Braford, so I can see a possibility but wouldn't the cow have to carry the wild gene too for that to express?

 

[SBMF 2015]

I've never got a blue roan out of a Charolais. What is that cross?
We did have a Char bull that through what I call Strawberry blonde calves. Kind of an orange/ tan color. They were little meat wagons from the day they were born until they went to the packers.

 

[Ky hills]

I've never got a blue roan out of a Charolais. What is that cross?
We did have a Char bull that through what I call Strawberry blonde calves. Kind of an orange/ tan color. They were little meat wagons from the day they were born until they went to the packers.

I have seen a lot of Charolais crosses quite a few smoke and reddish tan calves like you said, and some spotted calves, but I'm pretty sure the roans would come from whatever the other breed in the cross was, and be a diluted version.

 

[lms0229]

Ky Hills - so brindling can happen with a black cow carrying a recessive red gene and carrying a brindling gene. If the cow was just heterozygous black (black coat color expressed but carrying a red) the cow would be black and not brindle...brindle is its own add on bonus. So not only must she either be wild type color OR black carrying red BUT she must also have inherited the brindling gene. The brindling gene can only be expressed if both red and black coloring are present. Your cow is most likely homozygous black but the father carries red and most likely the brindling gene. Braford are usually homozygous red and both breeds carry a high amount of brindling but it won't express until in the presence of both black and red.

 

[lms0229]

SBMF 2015 - usually it is a white shorthorn put on a black galloway but it can be done several different ways. You can cross a Charolais with Holstein and get some very beautiful blue and silver spotted calves but to get blue roan you need an animal that carries roan like shorthorns. So a blue roan has to have black color with one dilution gene and a gene for roan. So you could say have an cow that was half black angus and half roan shorthorn and breed her to a Charolais bull and a number of them would come out blue roan. Or take a half Charolais and half roan shorthorn and breed to Angus cows and get similar results.

 

[lms0229]

also I should note that breeding 2 blue roans together will not yield you 100% blue roan offspring.

 

[Logan52]

I used a roan Shorthorn bull in 1986 and kept back some heifers. Still have some cows out of this line that occasionally throw a roan calf though they have never been bred back to a Shorthorn.
About five years ago "Old White Belly", a Red Poll cross from this line, was bred to a white Charolais. She was a dark red cow with a white underline and a few scattered white hairs in her red. She had a pretty buckskin calf with a distinct roan pattern, the only calf with this color pattern I have ever seen. I kept her for a cow but she has had solid color calves.
My cows are mostly buckskin Charolais crosses I breed to an angus bull. I get about half shiny black and half light with dark noses (lighter than what I would call a smoke).

 

[MarkH]

Before you understand where the Black Charolais came from you have to understand why and where red factor Charolais came from. In the upgrading process to 31/32 a few purebreds were produced that were heterozygous for the diluter genes that make Charolais cattle white. These buff or buckskin purebred cattle where ruthlessly culled because they didn't meet what was considered breed character as far as color was concerned. This meant that if you saw a purebred tan cow she was likely a good one. Many astute cattle men noticed this and started collecting these cows due to their performance. At the same time a new type of bull customer began showing up at the farm gate: A breeder that raised a red or black breed that did not want to have his calves silver or buckskin colored. Red factor bulls were being used in such cow herds to open up a bull market that never existed previously for Charolais bulls. In fact, if the bull was dark red so much the better (homozygous) since the diluter gene was completely gone. This new bull market was very important in Canada since the Charolais is the dominant beef breed there. If you wanted to increase market share you had to offer a different product that overcame a objection to its use (white hair). This is also true to a lessor degree in Australia. In the USA the AICA takes a much more restrictive position as to including red factor cattle in the registry. Red factor cattle have been produced in the USA from non-Canadian stock from breeders such as Michaelis (MGM) in Texas however.
Big problems for the red Charolais cattle are showing white like a Hereford, Shorthorn or Holstein. Many good cattle where culled due to this problem. They also lack genetic diversity due to the few numbers that made it through the grading up process.
After the red Charolais became established in Canada breeders such as Hendrik Rasmussen, Steve Quinton, and Don Pochylko though if we can produce a red Charolais, why can't we produce a black Charolais through the grading up process using red bulls? About 35 years ago they startd doing exactly that. For their efforts they have a few hundred purebreds. Few of these cattle meet the quality standards for a white or red Charolais and breeders are still trying to improve numbers and quality. Many percentage black bulls are used on purebred cows because that is the highest quality black Charolais bull available. You get a few purebred Black Charolais at bull sales every year. They sell for no more money than a white bull (sometimes less). This is a niche market since most bull buyers want the silver or buckskin claves that identify a Charolais sired calf. The diluter gene has become a Charolais trademark in Canada. This niche position in the market is also true for red Charolais to a lessor degree. In effect the market has spoken and Charolais will be white breed for the foreseeable future.

 

[SBMF 2015]

SBMF 2015 - usually it is a white shorthorn put on a black galloway but it can be done several different ways. You can cross a Charolais with Holstein and get some very beautiful blue and silver spotted calves but to get blue roan you need an animal that carries roan like shorthorns. So a blue roan has to have black color with one dilution gene and a gene for roan. So you could say have an cow that was half black angus and half roan shorthorn and breed her to a Charolais bull and a number of them would come out blue roan. Or take a half Charolais and half roan shorthorn and breed to Angus cows and get similar results.

Thanks, I didn't know about crossing chars and holsteins. I always thought it took a Shorthorn and a black angus to get a blue roan.

 

[MarkH]

SMBF 2015 has it exactly right. I have seen Shorthorn Red Charolais cross steers that were deep red roan colored. They fooled a shorthorn breeder into thinking they were straight Shorthorn. He was disappointed when he found out the breeding of the bull they were out of. One of the steers went on to be the 4H grand champion in the district show that year.

 

[Draper]

SBMF 2015 - usually it is a white shorthorn put on a black galloway but it can be done several different ways. You can cross a Charolais with Holstein and get some very beautiful blue and silver spotted calves but to get blue roan you need an animal that carries roan like shorthorns. So a blue roan has to have black color with one dilution gene and a gene for roan. So you could say have an cow that was half black angus and half roan shorthorn and breed her to a Charolais bull and a number of them would come out blue roan. Or take a half Charolais and half roan shorthorn and breed to Angus cows and get similar results.

This is incorrect. A blue roan is an animal that is heterozygous black and also carries 1 copy of the roaning gene. There is no dilution gene needed. Breed a white shorthorn bull (2 copies of roan) to black cows and every single calf you have will genotype as a blue roan. Some animals may have minimal expressive roan but they still carry the roan gene..

Nothing bred to a Charolais is going to come out blue. Nothing. A blue roan (angus x shorthorn) bred to a Charolais is going to result in 100% of calves expressing diluter gene, so either a smoke or buckskin and if they inherit the roan gene possibly some faint roaning masked by the diluter gene.

 

[MarkH]

Draper,

Read my post on the origins of the black Charolais. Not all Charolais cattle have the diluter gene. A dark red Charolais will produce a red roan and a black Charolais a blue roan when bred to a Shorthorn. If you don't believe me contact the guys that raise these non duluter charolais or Google Shorthorn red
Charolais cross. The color genes in nondiluter Charolais work like those in every other cattle breed.