Black Angus AI Bulls Frame scores

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Just to give you some conversation:
FS is not always the same throughout the life of an animal. Extra supplementation early on can increase or maximize the frame of the calves. If you wean and put them on lower quality diets, the yearling FS can drop a digit or more. When they mature at whatever age depending on the genetics (normal/average or later for curvebenders) they will generally express more of their genetic frame score if they have had decent grazing or feed during those years. This is my experience from nearly 50 years of collecting data.

Studs and semen companies are playing the odds on young bulls. The lack of information and the blitz of pedigree and superfluous "great grand dam was a $250,000 cow" stuff is filler. Nobody knows how a bull will breed until you see calf crops. The exceptions are linebred animals sometimes. If they tell too much that might taint general sales then they might not get all of the money that they want from buyers. Another thing that they dropped years ago was gestation length. Now there is talk that short gestation is a link to poor PAP scores.

And on some older or proven bulls that check all of the boxes on EPDs, they are smaller framed and they do not want to make that point so clear.

Maybe somebody smarter can answer your question better.
 
Looks like Ebenezer gave a pretty good answer.
I was just thinking it was likely just not something that they the semen distributors and or breeders didn't want to show, because most of the bulls are likely not very high on the frame score chart.
I used to appreciate when they listed hip height. It was one of my biggest deciding factors. During that time there weren't many Angus over 58 inches and a lot around 55 56 so I tried to select bulls 58 or taller.
Back in the 80's and 90's it was a positive marketing tool to promote the frame and the larger the better. In Charolais you'd see 10-12 frame very common, now the charts don't even go that high.
They are still trying to moderate the already too moderate and 4-5 frame are mainstream Angus now.
 
I'm one of the few that believe a great big bull isn't a good thing! We are already finishing less animals, yet producing more beef than ever!
A nice low birth weight great AI bull will throw most of us wonderful calves. Why stick more feed into an animal just to help it build more frame? We eat their bones. Just my 2 cents..
 
Thank you all for your input!
Our take is looking to produce cattle that finish out at the 1600# mark, less turnover and processing involved at the feedlot and no discounts now for bigger carcasses

We also prefer the larger framed angus since we have data indicating the expected outcomes, although the epds are certainly subjective.

It appears now that the most popular AI bulls make a point of saying the popular high $C bulls will moderate frame size as a selling point, it is a great advantage to cross breeders of other breeds but we are looking to retain a 58" mature hip measurement on bulls we raise to use on purebred commercial cows.


Just our goal while retaining foot quality and disposition.
 
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I'm one of the few that believe a great big bull isn't a good thing! We are already finishing less animals, yet producing more beef than ever!
A nice low birth weight great AI bull will throw most of us wonderful calves. Why stick more feed into an animal just to help it build more frame? We eat their bones. Just my 2 cents..
If your business model is working for you then that's great. I used low birthweight AI bulls and walking CE herd bulls from them for years, due to selling bred heifers. I'd use the same bulls for cows too and I'm trying to move away from that as no longer selling bred heifers, and concentrating on cow calf.
My thoughts are that with those CE bulls a lot of pounds and money are left on the table. Those calves are going to be lighter weight, lighter muscled, if they are smaller framed they are going to finish out to fat too soon, for the feeders and packers business models.
I'm not advocating to go back to the days of 70+ inch hip height bulls or 2000 lb cows again but for me I believe that 6-7 frame scores are probably ideal. My ideal range for cows would be no less than 5 preferably no less than 5 1/2 and bulls no less than 6 preferably 7.
We see at the market that the heavier muscled larger framed calves sell better.
My thoughts are input costs are probably very little more if any in slightly larger cows.
There was a recent post on here about buyers wanting larger framed Charolais X type calves again.
 

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