Big Ooops!!

[El_Putzo]

I know you guys are probably tired of hearing about my heifers, but I have a real dilemma now.

I had them all sync'd and ready to AI for saturday morning, and you guessed it, my dad's simme bull got in with them. I'm pretty sure he covered 2 of the 4. I went ahead and AI'd the other two, but am not sure what to do with the 2 that appear to have gotten bred.

I have to decide whether it will be harder on them to make them abort now and try to AI them again, or let them carry the calves, knowing that there could likely be calving problems. This will also put me further behind in trying to build up my herd. Although I guess I could buy a couple extra heifers later to make up for the two that I would have potentially lost. The two that I think are bred have CED= @.5 and BW=5.5 and 2.8

Below is a pic of the 2 yr old bull. His EPDs are as follows with only about a 30% accuracy. CE=3.9 BW=2.6 WW=34.6 YW=58.8 CEM=4.9 MM=5.8 MWW=23.1 He had an actual BW of 85 lbs.

If I figured correctly off my "Across Breed EPD" chart it would be like they were bred by a hereford bull with BW=5.6 WW=59 WW=94.4 MM=33.6

The 5.6 BW scares me as these are heifers, but if they were to have heifers, I would think they could have some good potential as commercial cows.

Opinions wanted please. :help:

 

[Tod Dague]

Wait 7 days and hit them with lut and breed them to bull of choice.

 

[Bez]

Only two choices - abort or leave them.

The best answer is - Do what YOU think is best.

Opinion time now.

Aborting them is not a big deal - but you are going to have a longer calving time.

Hey, odds are you probably would not have caught them all using AI anyways.

You talk a lot about this bull - but you say nothing about the heifers.

Size, weight, age and so on?

I have not followed any of your threads on your heifers - off the top of my head - it is a two way street - so you'd better put up your comparison.

As for the bull - well schitzen happens - he was just doing what he is supposed to do.

30% accuracy on the numbers for two does put you at risk.

You'll get lots of advice on this one - but I would abort and start over on the face of what you have told me and what I know to this point.

Bez

 

[El_Putzo]

I guess I should have posted some info on the heifers too.


#1 DOB=9/12/03
CED=.5 BW=5.5 WW=32 YW=55 MM=10 M&G=26 CEM=1.1 Approximately 950-1000 lbs

#4 DOB=10/4/03
CED=.3 BW=2.8 WW=28 YW=45 MM=9 M&G=23 CEM=.3 Approximately 925-950 lbs

The heifers sire is a NJW 1Y Wrangler 19D son, Glengrove Humdinger J21:

CED=4.1 BW=3.4 WW=26 YW=44 MM=17 M&G=30 CEM=2.4

Not that pics prove anything, but there are pictures of each on the "More Pics" topic on this forum. I believe the ones that good bred are pics 1 and 4.

As a side note, I asked my neighbor (he AI'd the other 2 for me) how much pelvic room there was in the two he did. He said that he could not open his hand all the way up. He attributed that to the heifers carrying what he thought was a little to much flesh, plus this guy is 6' 7" and his fists are about the size of a small cantaloupe.

 

[rwtherefords]

Wait 7 days and hit them with lut and breed them to bull of choice.

I think Tod about says it all. What's the dilemma? If you didn't breed them to the bull you wanted to, hit them with the lut' and breed as desired.

You can get 600 different opinions from this board. The bottom line is, if you're not getting the calves you want, fix it!

 

[bigbull338]

weight wise the 2 heifers you desribe shpi;d weigh 1200 to 1300lbs at calving if you want to calve them i wouldnt feed them heavy you can slump the calves and rebreed them in 60 to 90 days scott

 

[El_Putzo]

Maybe I am paranoid, but would there be an adverse physiological effects of making them abort? That is my only concern with giving the lutalyse. Also if I do give the lutalyse, can I rebreed them on the next standing heat or should I wait for the next cycle?

 

[certherfbeef]

Maybe I am paranoid, but would there be an adverse physiological effects of making them abort? That is my only concern with giving the lutalyse. Also if I do give the lutalyse, can I rebreed them on the next standing heat or should I wait for the next cycle?

At 7 days they will not even know they were pregnant. Let the next heat pass to let them clean out and breed on the following heat.

 

[mtnman]

What the hell are you guys telling him?

If they are pregnant already, you can't just Lute them in 7 days, cause an abortion and start another pregnancy on the same day!

El-putzo, your heifers don't have much MCE in them, it might be risky. Can you post the Simmies Reg no, so I can look up his pedigree? He is not particularly stellar in the Simmental CE department, either.

mtnman

 

[sidney411]

mtnman - go back and reread the post's. No one said to abort and rebreed the same day. From what I'm reading it soulds like 2nd heat (60-90 days) from lut shot to re-breed.

 

[El_Putzo]

What the hell are you guys telling him?

If they are pregnant already, you can't just Lute them in 7 days, cause an abortion and start another pregnancy on the same day!

El-putzo, your heifers don't have much MCE in them, it might be risky. Can you post the Simmies Reg no, so I can look up his pedigree? He is not particularly stellar in the Simmental CE department, either.

mtnman

The bulls reg # is 2213238. He is not a CE bull, just a little under average I believe.

I realize that I would not give them the Lutalyse shot and AI them on the same day, I'm not sure where I gave you that impression, but that was not my intent. I would assume however that they are going to cycle within 1-4 days after the shot like they are supposed to. I just didn't know if I could breed them on that cycle or wait till the next.

 

[ollie]

I realize that I would not give them the Lutalyse shot and AI them on the same day, I'm not sure where I gave you that impression, but that was not my intent. I would assume however that they are going to cycle within 1-4 days after the shot like they are supposed to. I just didn't know if I could breed them on that cycle or wait till the next.

He'll talk to Koomarie and get back to you with the protocol . I would enjoy hearing what he has to say about follical suppression and egg release.

 

[mgman]

I just went through a similar thing a couple of months ago...had a heifer that was too young that the bull bred. I used a product called Estramate and it worked just like Lutylase does...once you give the heifer the shot she will cycle in 3-5 days-that's when she's passing the unwanted calf. She should then cycle in approximately 21 days just she normally would. At least that's how it worked for mine. You should be able to breed her at that time.

 

[mtnman]

Thank you for an intelligent answer, mgman.

El-putzo, I was coming to your defense, not railing on you.

Nobody said anything about waiting 21 days in the same post about "lute-ing" them up to the point that I made my post. Now, mgman cleared it up nicely.

Thanks for coming out to kick dirt, ollie, I expect it of you.

El-Putzo, I'd abort them, given the CE in the mating (That is not a CE Simmenal pedigree). I am afraid your tendency might be to "really take care of them" since you might be anxious about the delivery, in this case "really taking care of them" might mean extra feed, being in a smaller area, not exercising etc. If you do this, in your attempt to "really take care of them", you might in fact give them less of a chance to make it on their own.

Then, as you know by your post, and mgman pointed out in completeness, set them up and AI them on the next cycle.

mtnman

 

[ollie]

Hey mtnman my gyp is pregnant again. I am not sure what the sire is but with out any accuracies on epd's on the sire and dam you did such a good job for elputzo , I am wondering whether the little gyp can have the pups ok or should I watch her? Beats all I ever saw . Typical academia.

 

[El_Putzo]

mtnman,

No feathers ruffled here. Just looking for opinions.

Ollie,

I haven't heard you say yet what you'd do?? Just looking for an opinion.

 

[Muratic]

El-putzo, I was coming to your defense, not railing on you.

Nobody said anything about waiting 21 days in the same post about "lute-ing" them up to the point that I made my post. Now, mgman cleared it up nicely.

well minute man,

El putzo got his answers via pm. If he is not pleased with what he heard in the pm's I'm sure he went somewhere other than you for reliable information.

Please answer Ollie's question. I have a goat with the same situation as Ollie's gyp and El putzo's heifers. Can I even use Lute to abort a goat? Can I AI a goat? What do you suggest I feed them If I get more than one baby goat? Can I milk her and drink it myself and still have enough for the babies too? :?: :?: :?:

 

[ollie]

I would call my embryologist and ask him. Call a vet. I don't know why they wouldn't settle on an abortion before the normal 21 day cycle. I would wait till day 14 or so if the embryologist says it is all right. All that is dependent upon the genetics of the bull. If you don't like the pedigree or the phenotype of the bull then abort the calf. If you like the bull leave them bred.

 

[Bez]

Bez wrote:

The best answer is - Do what YOU think is best.

You'll get lots of advice on this one - but I would abort and start over on the face of what you have told me and what I know to this point.

ollie wrote:

If you don't like the pedigree or the phenotype of the bull then abort the calf. If you like the bull leave them bred.

Similar answers - are we on the same page - suspect so.

Mgman:

Until I came to this board I had never heard of Lute. We are exclusive users of Estrumate.

Bez

 

[frenchie]

bez..Until I came to this board I had never heard of Lute

:shock: