Better to embryo transfer or buy super females???

[EAT BEEF]

How good does $b50 make a cow? How bad is a cow with a $b15? What milk # makes a cow a great one? What price makes a cow great? E.P.D's are just a tool. A 1in Snap-on wrench is nice,but a cresent wrench is alot more usefull unless all you have are 1in bolts.

Unless you build a name I think you may have some trouble selling eggs,unless you buy a well known producer,then you will have to play with the sugar daddys to buy her and it's not a good bet you would ever get your money back.Better off to start with the kind that work for you now and build a solid cow herd.Then you might have something to offer the comm. cattlemen.

 

[grannysoo]

Good luck with either way. You're going to need it...

 

[angus9259]

What they said.

 

[Frankie]

How many cows are you thinking of buying? You can get several calves in a year out of the flush cow. But don't rush out and buy a high dollar cow and expect to get your money back with her first calf crop. Marketing is important. You might be better off to buy some cows, AI them to good bulls, and establish a reputation by testing bulls and selling through consignment sales for a few years. Having good genetics won't make you any money if you don't have a market willing to pay for them. And unless you have big bucks to advertise, it takes time to develop that market.

 

[KMacGinley]

Neither
your best bet is to buy registered good cows for Market price or a little above and start out slow while breeding up to better and better stock. The so called donor cows that you could buy at your level will never pan out. Most of that high dollar stuff is people trading money back and forth. You will never get as much money back from them as you pay them. Newcomers is where they make their money. Believe me; I have been on the inside as a herdsman in my youth and know what they say about people like you.
The only way to make out in this business is to start out cheap and build from there.

Frankie is exactly right with her advice. Good luck.

 

[Brandonm22]

I agree with KMacGinley. Buy really GOOD cows at affordable prices; then A.I. them to the best sires available, treat everybody well, and spend YEARS selling commercial bulls and building up a reputation. You will know more ten years from now than you know now and will be better prepared to identify which heifer from a flush is donor quality and which flushmates are not.

If you buy a heifer calf and take it to calving as a two year old???? Lots of variation here. Just to throw a wild guess number out there for your calculations.......I would say $800.....plus what you pay for the 205 day old heifer.

 

[EAT BEEF]

How much money do you have? If you have enough I'm sure someone will be glad to help you loose it.I don't really think your paying attention to what everyone is telling you.Do you have cows now?If you do what kind are working for you?If you get into higher performace cattle will the extra lbs pay for the extra feed? I don't know how your going to get bull studs to buy your bulls,just because you bought some sugar daddy so called flush cows.

 

[Brandonm22]

What would be the main things I need to take from the EPD's for a female? Is it better to give up $EN for CED or RE for MILK?

I could tell you what I think about growth EPDs, carcass EPDs, $EN, actual performance, capacity, thickness, frame, feed efficiency, milk, disposition, pedigree, and what we should be trying to achieve with a breeding program. And then somebody who knows more than I do about it could do the same thing and say something much different. Especially in the Angus breed, different breeders have different goals and different opinions. You probably need to study the differing philosophies about these things BEFORE you spend a bunch of money buying cattle.

 

[6M Ranch]

ET is not a game for beginners. Even for experienced operations, it's only a part, usually a small part. You'll have $1500 a calf into each live birth. Most of them will be worth half that at the sale barn. If your lucky, you'll get 1 or 2 that will bring a premium. Just starting out, no one will pay much over market for your calves. For what it's worth, you can buy good quality registered Angus all day for $1000 - $1500. AI to quality bulls, build slowly. Dispersion sales are a good place to get cattle you couldn't normally buy, for a reasonable price.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

I think KentuckyRookie has went to buy them cows. Also think if he or she comes back with out them some body needs to sell him some. Then in a few years it will listen better.

 

[EAT BEEF]

I think KentuckyRookie has went to buy them cows. Also think if he or she comes back with out them some body needs to sell him some. Then in a few years it will listen better.

yep

 

[EAT BEEF]

How much money do you have? If you have enough I'm sure someone will be glad to help you loose it.I don't really think your paying attention to what everyone is telling you.Do you have cows now?If you do what kind are working for you?If you get into higher performace cattle will the extra lbs pay for the extra feed? I don't know how your going to get bull studs to buy your bulls,just because you bought some sugar daddy so called flush cows.

What does it matter how much money I have? I do not have a single cow and have never raised a single one. Why do you insult me thinking I am buying some sugar daddy's so called anything? It does appear that a lot of people on this board know a ton about raising angus but do not know crap about making money. The advertising game is almost equally important as the genetics no matter how you get the genetics. I will pass your sentiments on the ANGUS JOURNAL and ask them to stop publishing the magazine as you clearly think that anyone who has money or wants to make money does not deserve to ask questions to anyone. I just wanted to know. I do think that I need to go in with someone in order to make this venture work. However, I would hate to believe that the only way to make money is the hope of slaughter prices.

Not that I don't,but you got alot to learn big fella.Thank you for passing my sentiments on to the AJ,but I already shared my thoughts with them.I just asked you some questions in hopes of you maybe investigating some things not in the AJ.Slaughter price is what matters to your future customers.Have you ever given much thought to getting into halter horses or show dogs?

 

[blacksnake]

Sounds like this person is ready to step in and fill the void left by all of the seedstock producers who are dispersing. I just hope he has more money and time than most of the ones that are dispersing. A lot of them couldn't make it and got out. Best luck to this guy as he chases his dream.

 

[KMacGinley]

How much money do you have? If you have enough I'm sure someone will be glad to help you loose it.I don't really think your paying attention to what everyone is telling you.Do you have cows now?If you do what kind are working for you?If you get into higher performace cattle will the extra lbs pay for the extra feed? I don't know how your going to get bull studs to buy your bulls,just because you bought some sugar daddy so called flush cows.

What does it matter how much money I have? I do not have a single cow and have never raised a single one. Why do you insult me thinking I am buying some sugar daddy's so called anything? It does appear that a lot of people on this board know a ton about raising angus but do not know crap about making money. The advertising game is almost equally important as the genetics no matter how you get the genetics. I will pass your sentiments on the ANGUS JOURNAL and ask them to stop publishing the magazine as you clearly think that anyone who has money or wants to make money does not deserve to ask questions to anyone. I just wanted to know. I do think that I need to go in with someone in order to make this venture work. However, I would hate to believe that the only way to make money is the hope of slaughter prices.

Wow! this post was awesome! I have been valiantly trying to behave on here since we lost Hill last year but the above paragraph is highly entertaining.

If I were you; in this atmosphere of high feed prices I would concentrate on $EN.

As far as making money... I know that if you pay out a lot of money for high priced breeding stock with no reputation or knowledge except for your self-proclaimed ability to know how to make money along with spending tons of money for $750-$1000 per page advertisements even with your advertising you will not be selling your breeding stock for what you paid for it. (Sorry the comma key is broke on my keyboard. I will use slashes from here on out.)

If on the other hand you decide to spend 10 years or so breeding up reasonably priced cattle to fit the type of cattle you find attractive or like working with/ you can then buy advertising to market your product.

Unless you are independently wealthy and could care less how much money you lose until your spouse tells you that all this money you are blowing on cattle could be used for a new house/ mercedes/ trips etc. and you have a complete dispersal sale/ there is no way to become successful than what you have been told here.

In any business venture/ you make money by keeping costs below expenses.

A lot of people/ myself included do not even take the AJ because it has little or no useful information/ just ads/ and it costs $80 for membership with it and $30 without it.

Your customers/ as has been attempted to be pointed out to you/ have as a primary interest slaughter prices and for the next 10 years that will be your market.

Maybe you should just look into Alpacas. I understand that they are very easy to make money on just like Donor cows/ Ostriches/ llamas/ race horses/ Emus/ Elk/ etc.

 

[EAT BEEF]

I wonder how many on here don't work another job or aren't retired,and of those that run cows full time does your wife or husband have a job to provide insurance and some household income?

I have pretty much made aliving in agriculture,but most of the profit comes from hauling cattle and equipment and building fence and moving dirt.My wife also works outside the home.I might be a poor manager? or we might be motivated to own more land and cows? With all our cows paid for last year we could have lived on the income from the cows,this year it would be pretty tight.

I made some pretty good money with my fence company in Ohio with gov., railroad jobs,ect and hay and trucking.I bought alot over priced cows and it was fun,but I lost money on them.My wife and I decided we wanted to run a larger number of cows than we could in Ohio(high land prices and avalibility of land)and if we were going to have children we wanted to raise them in a more rural setting.This is when profit from cattle became a priority and not just 20-30 head to compliment my family farm.

The little bit of a reputation I have is what sells 90% of my bulls,the other 10% get sold because of what it says on the papers.My goal is to sell maternal based cattle to the comm. cowman,not to trade money with the sugar daddy crowd.If thats your goal you may be able to do well at it if you have deep enough pockets,but I don't think you will see a profit.

I learn when it hurts,I wish I could learn by listening.The advice you have been given I think is good,it's up to you if you listen.First you need to figure out out what kind of cattle you want to produce and what you think you may have a market for terminal performace type bulls,maternal cow herd building type bulls,show cattle.Once you learn all you can about it jump in and get your feet wet.

ps
I'm not the least bit concerned about you takeing money out of my hands with your flush cow or high e.p.d cows,but if you think were all full of **** prove us wrong.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Unless your dead set on angus i have some Limis that just might the kinda of donor cows you are looking for, at around $10,000.oo each i could turn loose of about a dozen.

 

[TheBullLady]

I think you're missing the point.... most of the folks that have replied are trying to tell you that MUCH of the seedstock industry is based on a name and reputation. These are things that will take years to establish, no matter how much $$ you have to spend on donor cows.

You also should consider that just because you spend $10K for a cow, and flush her and get progeny, there is no guarantee that the calves will be any good for anything except the auction barn.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Your the one who wants to get rich off of cattle in a heart beat. People been trying to tell you for two or three days here what it takes. They like me have been doing it all there lives you have yet too own your first cow. So you want to buy high priced cows or not. Prices i quoted are in line with the high dollar donor cows you started out wanting. You don't buy your way in and make it you breed your way up..

 

[EAT BEEF]

You are awful full of yourself for being the new guy on here,maybe the ribbing has got you felling defensive.I might be full of myself aswell I'm sure you'll tell me if I am.Your also 13 years older than I am and my family didn't farm(my grandparents did own 120acres they let me rent to get started).I wanted to farm and everybody said you can't make any money,but I found a way to farm and make most of my income from agriculture.It's not easy to do and harder now than 15 years ago,but if you want to I'm sure you can find a way.Setting it up and learning everything is the fun part anyway,the genetic progress is kinda slow(but rewarding)and leaves some time to razz short tempered guys from kentucky.

 

[angus9259]

Well....I am confused. Are you telling me that the only way to make any money is to spend money for ten years in the hopes that someone might buy something for above slaughter price. Is that the honorable way to do things? I suppose the men that had to go through dispersal sales after 40 years experience doing this will say the same thing right? I think someone makes money otherwise you guys would not even be here on this board. You would go get a part time job to make your bills. I just love how some vets try to steer people away from this so called hobby. Calling it a living and telling me that you cannot make money is not comical. I appreciate those opinions that generate positive thinking and I don't mind not knowing things because all of us can learn. Making improper comments in your posts ONLY CEMENTS THE FACT THAT I AM RIGHT about the money making part. I am assuming that most of you guys lose money is that correct?

Making money is not a prequisite for being on the board.

I recently went to seedstock after 15 years in commercial - I wouldn't EVER recommend doing it differently. The investment was $60,000. Considering the cost of capital, it may be some time before I make money. But before I spent a dime for that, I had a business plan for how I would market what I produce.

By way of demonstration - there was an EXAR cow that sold for $6000 at the boyd sale and a Fox Run cow that sold similarly. Guess who bought them? Express ranches bought the EXAR cow and Fox Run bought the Fox Run cow. I have no proof of this, but I'll bet Boyd bought that animal as a heifer calf off the farm for . . . $6,000. In the end, nothing was really sold, but it looks like you could get $6,000 for a cow. However, EXAR can now market a cow to you that had a $6,000 valuation last year when the only reason it had that valuation was because they bid it up.

I'm not saying there isn't money in seedstock, but EXAR will never buy one of my cows and, even if they did, I would have had to buy one of theirs first so I have a different "market".

When you buy a business, before you purchase a "production unit" (which a cow is) you have to know who will buy your product and how much they are willing to pay. In your case, it seems you're investigating production units before knowing who will buy the product and why they will buy from you. The cart may be before the cow so to speak. That's what I hear this entire thread warning you against and you keep pushing to know what production unit to buy. They are wisely trying to shift your focus. You may certainly decide if you allow that to happen.

In the meantime, I haven't given up my day job. 90% of farmers by number still have a day job to help pay the bills.