Best Bull to Improve Future Cows

[Adam Freeman]

I have lost my current bull to an injury so have started looking for a new one. I won't need him till May as this one was able to finish his duties before going lame. My current thoughts are to look for one that will improve my heifers so that I can start to retain them and improve my herd overall. My lame bull was a GAR Method AAA 19377163 and he made good calves but we were just selling everything we had and now we are ready to start retaining some of our heifers so we want to look for something to help improve our herd.

What do you look at for your bulls and what traits are the top ones that you look at versus others.
I had been looking at
CED of 10+
DOC 25+
Milk 25-30
RE .75+
Marb .90+
Birth Weight of 75lbs +/- 3
Also was looking at weaning weight being around 650-700

Any insight on what I should be looking for as far as a replacement that will help raise good cows is much appreciated.
I have heard some good things from some of these bulls and looking at their sons.
Rainmaker
Jindra Acclaim
Deer Valley Growth Fund
GAR Pheonix
GAR Ashland
Connealy Capitalist

 

[gcreekrch]

I have lost my current bull to an injury so have started looking for a new one. I won't need him till May as this one was able to finish his duties before going lame. My current thoughts are to look for one that will improve my heifers so that I can start to retain them and improve my herd overall. My lame bull was a GAR Method AAA 19377163 and he made good calves but we were just selling everything we had and now we are ready to start retaining some of our heifers so we want to look for something to help improve our herd.

What do you look at for your bulls and what traits are the top ones that you look at versus others.
I had been looking at
CED of 10+
DOC 25+
Milk 25-30
RE .75+
Marb .90+
Birth Weight of 75lbs +/- 3
Also was looking at weaning weight being around 650-700

Any insight on what I should be looking for as far as a replacement that will help raise good cows is much appreciated.
I have heard some good things from some of these bulls and looking at their sons.
Rainmaker
Jindra Acclaim
Deer Valley Growth Fund
GAR Pheonix
GAR Ashland
Connealy Capitalist

Actual bw, ww and yw. Then I want to see his feet and legs, without them you have nothing. Then is he long, thick and deep. Nuts should be 37+ at a year. The only EPD I look at is milk. Over 20 and they become hard keeping and don't breed back for what we give them to live on. Beef cows aren't dairy cows.

 

[Allenw]

I've seen a good set of cows wrecked chasing high milk epd's.

 

[Son of Butch]

For producers seeking to retain females, start with $M (maternal index) it's a weighted index of profitable maternal traits based on retaining 20% or more of your heifers to enter your herd.

Breed average $M 59
Use sires above $M 62 then sort for desired individual traits from there.

example:
Capitalist 028 ced 11 bw +.2 (acc 97%) sc .89 top 45% cem 6 doc 16 milk 18

Connealy Capitalist 028 $M 77 top 10%
Deer Valley Growth Fund $M 68 top 25%
GAR Phoenix $M 64 top 30%

GAR Ashland $M 59 breed average
Jindra Acclaim $M 35 bottom 5%

Which Rainmaker? there are a dozen Rainmakers.

Not on your list, but recommended for retaining females
Werner War Party 2417 $M 84 top 4%

 

[Adam Freeman]

For producers seeking to retain females, start with $M (maternal index) it's a weighted index of profitable maternal traits based on retaining 20% or more of your heifers to enter your herd.

Breed average $M 59
Use sires above $M 62 then sort for desired individual traits from there.

example:
Capitalist 028 ced 11 bw +.2 (acc 97%) sc .89 top 45% cem 6 doc 16 milk 18

Connealy Capitalist 028 $M 77 top 10%
Deer Valley Growth Fund $M 68 top 25%
GAR Phoenix $M 64 top 30%

GAR Ashland $M 59 breed average
Jindra Acclaim $M 35 bottom 5%

Which Rainmaker? there are a dozen Rainmakers.

Not on your list, but recommended for retaining females
Werner War Party 2417 $M 84 top 4%

Awesome thanks for the insight have not really figured out all these different traits and qualities this really helps.

 

[faster horses]

Watch the YW. If it is high, then your cows will get big. So many have selected bulls with YW over 100 and they have regretted it. Us, we want MODERATE cows, with good bags. Angus milk EPD's have shot through the roof. So be careful.

We bought nice registered cows from a breeder north of us for years. They were older but the way we managed them, they did really good for us. The last year, they called and they wanted to sell all their 3 year olds. That made us scratch our head. We went to look and they had used a bull, won't say which one, that they retained the heifers from. They had basically no milk. We asked what they AI'd them back to and they said Shearbrook Shoshone. (A really old bull now, but at one time was the highest for milk). They were trying to put the milk back. Problem was, among other things, Shearbrook Shoshone had udder issues. We passed on the 3 year olds.

That's a story of not enough milk, but now the Angus high milk EPD's concern me. Too much milk in our country will take the condition (fat) right off a cows back.

Also, I agree with what gcreekrch and son of butch posted.

Good luck!

 

[Adam Freeman]

What do you consider a high milk number. If i remember right my bull was a 27. I will have to look.

 

[gcreekrch]

20 is high for here.

 

[puzzled in oregon]

Watch the YW. If it is high, then your cows will get big. So many have selected bulls with YW over 100 and they have regretted it. Us, we want MODERATE cows, with good bags. Angus milk EPD's have shot through the roof. So be careful.

We bought nice registered cows from a breeder north of us for years. They were older but the way we managed them, they did really good for us. The last year, they called and they wanted to sell all their 3 year olds. That made us scratch our head. We went to look and they had used a bull, won't say which one, that they retained the heifers from. They had basically no milk. We asked what they AI'd them back to and they said Shearbrook Shoshone. (A really old bull now, but at one time was the highest for milk). They were trying to put the milk back. Problem was, among other things, Shearbrook Shoshone had udder issues. We passed on the 3 year olds.

That's a story of not enough milk, but now the Angus high milk EPD's concern me. Too much milk in our country will take the condition (fat) right off a cows back.

Also, I agree with what gcreekrch and son of butch posted.

Good luck!

When you talk about the milk, are you talking volume or butterfat content

 

[faster horses]

Sorry, butterfat content wasn't measured when we were raising heifers. I can imagine it's very important though. Some cows with small bags raise a really good calf. We were very concerned about udder quality. So tell me more about butterfat importance in range cows.

 

[wbvs58]

When you talk about the milk, are you talking volume or butterfat content

The milk EPD is only calculated from the weight of the calf the cow weans, there is no measurement of milk actually produced nor the quality of it.

Ken

 

[wbvs58]

I have used Basin Rainmaker 4404 and have 2 heifers that had their first calves about 6 weeks ago and so far seem to be making a fair job on them. I used Ashland last year and have some young calves by him which are catching my eye.

Ken

 

[GoWyo]

Keep an eye on mature height and mature weight. You can have moderate frame mature cows with calves that wean heavy and feed well. For us, I like MH +.4 or less and MW +50 or better. Keep an eye on HP as well.

 

[Nesikep]

Actual bw, ww and yw. Then I want to see his feet and legs, without them you have nothing. Then is he long, thick and deep. Nuts should be 37+ at a year. The only EPD I look at is milk. Over 20 and they become hard keeping and don't breed back for what we give them to live on. Beef cows aren't dairy cows.

Yup, the milk EPD you want is definitely going to be area/feed dependent. I have one cow line that's a little high even for me, I'm still trying to find the happy medium... One of my first timers from that line raised a massive calf, but bred back late, I"ll keep her around, she might have a bit a lighter calf next fall, but if she makes whoppers for the rest of her life it might be a worthwhile tradeoff...
Another heifer this year has a dinky heifer calf, she isn't in great condition either, and bred back late too.. she's on a truck this fall!

 

[JParrott]

Sorry, butterfat content wasn't measured when we were raising heifers. I can imagine it's very important though. Some cows with small bags raise a really good calf. We were very concerned about udder quality. So tell me more about butterfat importance in range cows.

I've been amazed at the calves I've seen come off of cows and heifers that have udders that look like a yearling and never get any larger. Makes me realize that it's never a sure thing.

 

[sim.-ang.king]

What breed of cows are you going to possible use these bulls on? If you have high % angus cows, forget the angus bulls and breed for crossbred heifers. If it's a mixed group of cows, use the angus bulls.

 

[Wind and Sage]

Keep an eye on mature height and mature weight. You can have moderate frame mature cows with calves that wean heavy and feed well. For us, I like MH +.4 or less and MW +50 or better. Keep an eye on HP as well.

I agree. Being in Wyoming, we generally need a bit smaller framed cow. I've spent thirty some years trying to figure out how to continuously improve the maternal in the herd. That is generally what it all comes back to, on many levels, including longevity, wean weights, and ability to breed back. One thing I've learned is that the big beautiful replacement heifer that you love usually falls through the cracks in a couple of years, while the more common replacement heifer is the one that lasts in the herd until she is twelve years old. The reason is the big beautiful heifer puts it all into herself, and the middle of the road heifer puts it into her calf. Years ago, N Bar ranch used to sell off the top third of the heifer crop, and the bottom third of the heifer crop and keep the middle third. Interesting way of selection, and not exactly what I do, but N Bar had probably one of the finest cowherds around.

Also, I generally try to talk to breeders I trust that have experience with daughters of a sire, and also try to visit ranches or cattle tours that have daughters of the sire. I'll be doing all of that through this winter, myself, only it will be dealing more with a calving ease heifer bull. Hope it helps.

 

[Steve123]

Watch the YW. If it is high, then your cows will get big. So many have selected bulls with YW over 100 and they have regretted it. Us, we want MODERATE cows, with good bags. Angus milk EPD's have shot through the roof. So be careful.

We bought nice registered cows from a breeder north of us for years. They were older but the way we managed them, they did really good for us. The last year, they called and they wanted to sell all their 3 year olds. That made us scratch our head. We went to look and they had used a bull, won't say which one, that they retained the heifers from. They had basically no milk. We asked what they AI'd them back to and they said Shearbrook Shoshone. (A really old bull now, but at one time was the highest for milk). They were trying to put the milk back. Problem was, among other things, Shearbrook Shoshone had udder issues. We passed on the 3 year olds.

That's a story of not enough milk, but now the Angus high milk EPD's concern me. Too much milk in our country will take the condition (fat) right off a cows back.

Also, I agree with what gcreekrch and son of butch posted.

Good luck!

This says it all. Keep your cows moderate frame and then mix in some terminal sire lines. Weaning a calf that is more than 50% of the cows body weight is a huge win. Stick with Coleman, Ohlde, Duff and even Griswold for bulls that produce keeper females.

 

[Ridgetop]

The trick is to determine what you want to breed for. A bull that will produce a high WW may be the bull you want for feeder steers but not necessarily what you want to produce replacement heifers. Since you are concentrating on increasing your herd with replacement heifers now, you should choose the bull that will produce the best heifers and eventual breeding cows.

The right tool for the job. You need different things for cow and heifer production than you do for market steer/calf production. The emphasis should be on production of maternal qualities from the new bull to make sure you get the right replacement cows for your herd. You might not need as fast growing a heifer calf as you will bull calves destined for the feeder calf sale. You also need to suit the maternal qualities you are looking for to your location, climate, and pasture situation.

You will be sending all the bull calves to market but you want the heifers to have the right traits for your expanding production herd. Once you have established your new heifer and cow herd, then you may need to add a bull with higher WW and YW for quick growth of your bull calves.

 

[faster horses]

We raised replacement heifers for sale. We considered the steer calves to be by-products.
I heartily agree with your post Ridgetop.