Best breed for maternal & terminal bulls

[Red Bull Breeder]

Grassroots Genetics and LimiGene for the limousin semen.

 

[Aero]

You actually think you can make a statement that in effect negates the laws of heterosis.

try to make an effort to actually read the words in a post instead of seeing what you are accustomed to reading. i said it didnt matter what breeds you chose; i didnt make any comment about heterosis.

By the way I am pretty sure the reason "common knowledge" is common is because it works.

yet another assumption made in the darkness...

 

[VLS_GUY]

Aero,

What do you think is the contribution of the double muscled Angus bulls now in use in the UK?
Isn't this the logical end of the Angus attempt to be all things to everyone?

 

[3waycross]

For my money and a lot of other folks that is the ultimate deal. The 3waycross adds the last little bit of available heterosis, and with that cross you will get growth and max your carcass traits. Personally I would much prefer a Red Gelbvieh crossed on the hereford cow then breed the resulting offspring to a hot terminal Angus bull. That gives you a red/red baldie cowherd that is more heat tolerant, has great maternal and should have real good disposition. Then the Angus gives them what the market seems to want. The blk hide. :2cents: :2cents: :2cents:

The more modern Angus I see, the more I agree with them being a good terminal cross.

Who offers a lot of GV or Limi semen? I looked in the ABS book and did not see much of a selection.

Bull Barn
http://bullbarn.com/home.asp

Cattlemans Connection
http://www.cattlemensconnection.com/

 

[3waycross]

I guess I should have read Dun's post before I spoke but cattlemans Connection is really a good source. The offer some sires that bull barn doesn't.

 

[KNERSIE]

Read an Angus bulletin article last week why not to cross breed. Their point was that BA had made so much progress on growth and carcass that you do not need any continental blood in feed lot animals. ;-)

I like Char on baldies but they get discounted here.
I like GV on baldies but the heifers are too big for me.
I have started with Limi on baldies. We will see.

Classical case of different strokes for different folks, limousin would be the last breed I look at for making replacements, but maybe thats just me here in my corner of the 3rd world.

The problem with crossbreeding systems in my opinion is that to really get the full effect you need and reliable outside source to supply the maternal genetics to keep the genetic make up of the maternal herd the same. From there onwards your options are limitless on bull choice.

I'd personally use charolais or limousin bulls on baldie females and not bother retaining heifers at all, I'd rather go and buy aged, but sound baldie cows from a reliable source if possible to find them.

 

[andybob]

Please educate me about hybrid vigor. I hear this term all the time but then I also read the articles down playing it. I realize most information is written by feed Co.,drug Co., etc. and they all have an agenda and that is why I am here, trying to get real world info. Thanks.

http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/liv ... tm#crossys
This article is a good start for understanding the basics of breeding and crossbreeding.

 

[andybob]

Knersie, when I still had my herd in Rhodesia/Zimbabwe, I had an arrangement to breed and supply F1 females which the buyer crossed with a terminal bull for his feedlot/butchery business. There is no reason why commercial breeders shouldn't network to produce the different lines they need for successful beef production. The pig industry did this for many years before specialist breeding companies developed and began to supply commercial F1 damline and terminal boars to the commercial producers.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

I think Limousin cows like this have all the maternal qualitys any herd needs. I understand limosin cattle may not look like this in the third world Knersie.

 

[3waycross]

Do you get this same bump with a Balancer/Hereford cross...I guess what I'm asking is do the two breeds have to be full blood?

For my money and a lot of other folks that is the ultimate deal. The 3waycross adds the last little bit of available heterosis, and with that cross you will get growth and max your carcass traits. Personally I would much prefer a Red Gelbvieh crossed on the hereford cow then breed the resulting offspring to a hot terminal Angus bull. That gives you a red/red baldie cowherd that is more heat tolerant, has great maternal and should have real good disposition. Then the Angus gives them what the market seems to want. The blk hide. :2cents: :2cents: :2cents:

This is the model I was refering to. Treating the purchased F-1 as the first cross between GV and Herf then going back on them with TERMINAL Angus.

Mating System
% of Maximum Possible Heterosis*
Estimated Increase in Calf Wt. Weaned per Cow Exposed (%)

2 Breeds 50% heterosis 12 lbs gained per calf
3 Breeds rotation
67% Heterosis
16 lbs gained per calf

Terminal Sire X Purchased F1 Females(GVxHERF) This assumes that you keep X number of the base herf cows and AI them with the GV chosing sires that fit your environment. Worst case scenarion you clean up the herf cows with the terminal Angus bull and create come very saleable Blk Baldies.
100 Heterosis
23-28 lbs gained per calf

2–Breed Rotation & Terminal Sire
90%Heterosis
21 lbs gained per calf.

BTW this is not a knock on anyone's Cattle(Red Bull Breeder) It's just the model I would use if I was to go back commercial.

 

[KNERSIE]

I think Limousin cows like this have all the maternal qualitys any herd needs. I understand limosin cattle may not look like this in the third world Knersie.

They actually look quite a bit better, but lack the fertility needed to be profitable in a the commercial sector.

 

[Aero]

Aero,

What do you think is the contribution of the double muscled Angus bulls now in use in the UK?
Isn't this the logical end of the Angus attempt to be all things to everyone?

it's just another way people have confused what a breed is supposed to be. this perversion is usually called "improvement".

there is no point in using the name of a breed when it could mean anything. if the only trait consistent about the breed is color, it's not much of a "breed", just a fashion statement. anything other than what that breed stands for should be heckled out of the registered business in my opinion.

to avoid confusion: traditional Angus standards = strong mothering ability, good milking, early sexual maturity, moderate frame, moderate muscling, moderate growth, great calving ease, high marbling, homo black, homo polled.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Looks don't count for much if it doesn't work knersie, the cow i posted has never had any fertility issues. At fourteen years old in that picture she weaned a 600 lb heifer calf on grass. If they look better in the third world but don't perform somebody needs some that don't look so good but works for there living. Cattle of all breeds are mostly what the human race has made of them.

 

[KNERSIE]

Looks don't count for much if it doesn't work knersie, the cow i posted has never had any fertility issues. At fourteen years old in that picture she weaned a 600 lb heifer calf on grass. If they look better in the third world but don't perform somebody needs some that don't look so good but works for there living. Cattle of all breeds are mostly what the human race has made of them.

I agree wholeheartedly, hence my comment that limousin would be the last breed that I would consider for replacements, but would be one of the first for a terminal purpose.

 

[VLS_GUY]

Aero,

I am having a tough time understanding what you mean. Aren't the occurrence of double muscled bulls like Oakchurch Dictator ( http://www.genusbreeding.co.uk/document ... ril_09.pdf) a necessary evil if you want a true Terminal capability? Keep in mind this bull is in the UK but is descended from North American genetics.
What about high growth and birth weight sires like Young Dale Monarch 12E? Would these be the type of terminal Angus sires you have in mind?
How many bull sales can supply 10 Angus bulls with:
1. Yearling weights between 1,300 and 1,500 LB.
2. Lean and ready to go to work, no fatties and/or pushed bulls. No more than 8 LB of grower ration a day.
3. Able to calve out easily everything from a Charolais to smaller shorthorn cross cow.
4. Enough muscle to put a YG of 1 to 2 on both heifers and steers out of British breed cross cows.
5. Priced for a commercial operator (under $ 4,500 this year).
The above are my requirements for a high growth terminal bull. The Limos, Simmys and Charolais have scores of bulls sales that have bulls meet these requirements. The Angus bulls I have seen have a tough time meeting point 2 if they make point 1. Filling an order for 10 such bulls would be tough for any commercial bull sale in the Angus breed.

 

[Isomade]

Aero,

I am having a tough time understanding what you mean. Aren't the occurrence of double muscled bulls like Oakchurch Dictator ( http://www.genusbreeding.co.uk/document ... ril_09.pdf) a necessary evil if you want a true Terminal capability? Keep in mind this bull is in the UK but is descended from North American genetics.
What about high growth and birth weight sires like Young Dale Monarch 12E? Would these be the type of terminal Angus sires you have in mind?
How many bull sales can supply 10 Angus bulls with:
1. Yearling weights between 1,300 and 1,500 LB.
2. Lean and ready to go to work, no fatties and/or pushed bulls. No more than 8 LB of grower ration a day.
3. Able to calve out easily everything from a Charolais to smaller shorthorn cross cow.
4. Enough muscle to put a YG of 1 to 2 on both heifers and steers out of British breed cross cows.
5. Priced for a commercial operator (under $ 4,500 this year).
The above are my requirements for a high growth terminal bull. The Limos, Simmys and Charolais have scores of bulls sales that have bulls meet these requirements. The Angus bulls I have seen have a tough time meeting point 2 if they make point 1. Filling an order for 10 such bulls would be tough for any commercial bull sale in the Angus breed.

:nod: and if they do have 1 and 2, #5 is out of the question.

 

[Brandonm22]

Aero,

I am having a tough time understanding what you mean. Aren't the occurrence of double muscled bulls like Oakchurch Dictator ( http://www.genusbreeding.co.uk/document ... ril_09.pdf) a necessary evil if you want a true Terminal capability? Keep in mind this bull is in the UK but is descended from North American genetics.
What about high growth and birth weight sires like Young Dale Monarch 12E? Would these be the type of terminal Angus sires you have in mind?
How many bull sales can supply 10 Angus bulls with:
1. Yearling weights between 1,300 and 1,500 LB.
2. Lean and ready to go to work, no fatties and/or pushed bulls. No more than 8 LB of grower ration a day.
3. Able to calve out easily everything from a Charolais to smaller shorthorn cross cow.
4. Enough muscle to put a YG of 1 to 2 on both heifers and steers out of British breed cross cows.
5. Priced for a commercial operator (under $ 4,500 this year).
The above are my requirements for a high growth terminal bull. The Limos, Simmys and Charolais have scores of bulls sales that have bulls meet these requirements. The Angus bulls I have seen have a tough time meeting point 2 if they make point 1. Filling an order for 10 such bulls would be tough for any commercial bull sale in the Angus breed.

:nod: and if they do have 1 and 2, #5 is out of the question.

If they weaned at 205 days weighing 700 lbs and weighed 1400 lbs 160days later eating 8 lbs of grower ration a day that would be just 1.8 lbs of feed per pound of gain :shock:

That is pretty darn good efficiency for a catfish. I am not saying that it is not THEORETICALLY doable (after 10 generations of heavy selection for feed efficiency); but you are right that bull would be worth a heck of a lot more than $4500!

 

[Dylan Biggs]

Aero,

I am having a tough time understanding what you mean. Aren't the occurrence of double muscled bulls like Oakchurch Dictator ( http://www.genusbreeding.co.uk/document ... ril_09.pdf) a necessary evil if you want a true Terminal capability?

I got the impression from Matts description of "traditional Angus standards = strong mothering ability, good milking, early sexual maturity, moderate frame, moderate muscling, moderate growth, great calving ease, high marbling, homo black, homo polled." that he doesn't think that terminal capability is a part of the Angus job description.

I agree with him. :tiphat:

 

[Northern Rancher]

A terminal Angus makes about as much sense as running a Shetland in the Kentucky Derby.

 

[Dylan Biggs]

A terminal Angus makes about as much sense as running a Shetland in the Kentucky Derby.

NR, you know "everyone" wants to run with the big dogs. :cboy: