Beef Production - USA vs Australia - Ringside Seats!

[Herefords.US]

What do you want to do?

Sometimes, my curiosity trumps reason. I was trying to get other's opinions. Actually, the feedback I've received hasn't been as negative as I expected. He'll probably get to stick around - at least until frost - when I will re-evaluate my options. In my opinion, the best use for this bull would be in a herd that has a lot of muscle, but needs to add maternal traits. That's not my herd. I may already have too much milk bred into my herd for the conditions I'm forcing them to produce in.

If I was looking for a "terminal" bull, I should have kept the growthiest one in the bunch! As I said before, IF this bull has value, it will probably be in the maternal (and hopefully easy-keeping) daughters he produces. The same thought crossed my mind when El_Putzo's bull was being evaluated. Will a "lack of masculinity" negatively affect his daughters or possibly make them better? Then my thoughts return to Bonsma's mantra.

George

 

[aussie_cowgirl]

What do you want to do?

Sometimes, my curiosity trumps reason. I was trying to get other's opinions. Actually, the feedback I've received hasn't been as negative as I expected. He'll probably get to stick around - at least until frost - when I will re-evaluate my options. In my opinion, the best use for this bull would be in a herd that has a lot of muscle, but needs to add maternal traits. That's not my herd. I may already have too much milk bred into my herd for the conditions I'm forcing them to produce in.

If I was looking for a "terminal" bull, I should have kept the growthiest one in the bunch! As I said before, IF this bull has value, it will probably be in the maternal (and hopefully easy-keeping) daughters he produces. The same thought crossed my mind when El_Putzo's bull was being evaluated. Will a "lack of masculinity" negatively affect his daughters or possibly make them better? Then my thoughts return to Bonsma's mantra.

George

Curiosity isn't always a bad thing, especially when it pays off.

The masculinity question is something I've thought about myself. But often when you look at cattle that are promoted as a 'maternal trait bull' they do have elements of femininity to them. At least that is what I have found. Or even in a maternally strong herd, the bulls often have that softness and subtle masculinity. Makes you curious.

Let us know what happens and what you choose.

 

[KNERSIE]

Then my thoughts return to Bonsma's mantra.

I'm a firm believer that masculine bulls produce femine heifers and vice versa. I've never seen a feminine looking bull really take a herd to the next level.

 

[rocket2222]

What do you want to do?

Sometimes, my curiosity trumps reason. I was trying to get other's opinions. Actually, the feedback I've received hasn't been as negative as I expected. He'll probably get to stick around - at least until frost - when I will re-evaluate my options. In my opinion, the best use for this bull would be in a herd that has a lot of muscle, but needs to add maternal traits. That's not my herd. I may already have too much milk bred into my herd for the conditions I'm forcing them to produce in.

If I was looking for a "terminal" bull, I should have kept the growthiest one in the bunch! As I said before, IF this bull has value, it will probably be in the maternal (and hopefully easy-keeping) daughters he produces. The same thought crossed my mind when El_Putzo's bull was being evaluated. Will a "lack of masculinity" negatively affect his daughters or possibly make them better? Then my thoughts return to Bonsma's mantra.

George

Well since you're being stubborn, and I was trying to be kind in an earlier post. The bull SUCKS George, if you keep him because you think he will be a "maternal bull" it's single trait selection, which never works in the long run. He as nothing else to offer from what I can see. Let the cows take care of the maternal side, and get something that at least resembles a bull for the masculine side.

 

[mnmtranching]

Here goes. Commercial beef producers should have the same quality sires as does seedstock producers.There should not be a difference.As I've posted comments before about the quality of some Herefords posted on these boards. I shall not this time because as far as I can see US breeders have a different standard of excellence than we do. It all bodes well for the Australian beef industry when we have compete against the US. When I work out the simplest way to post pictures of Australian cattle of various breeds on this site I will bombard the board with Australian cattle good and bad.

This is interesting. The US and Australia are not significant competitors in the world beef market. The US exports almost entirely high grade beef. Australia exports almost entirely grinding grade beef. The US is the worlds leader in producing HIGH quality beef. I find it interesting how US beef is criticized by some foreign sources.

 

[aussie_cowgirl]

Here goes. Commercial beef producers should have the same quality sires as does seedstock producers.There should not be a difference.As I've posted comments before about the quality of some Herefords posted on these boards. I shall not this time because as far as I can see US breeders have a different standard of excellence than we do. It all bodes well for the Australian beef industry when we have compete against the US. When I work out the simplest way to post pictures of Australian cattle of various breeds on this site I will bombard the board with Australian cattle good and bad.

This is interesting. The US and Australia are not significant competitors in the world beef market. The US exports almost entirely high grade beef. Australia exports almost entirely grinding grade beef. The US is the worlds leader in producing HIGH quality beef. I find it interesting how US beef is criticized by some foreign sources.

That is a complete load of crock. Where are your references to back this up? Australia pretty much owns the Japanese marbled beef market. We can't be too bad if we export to the USA either. Other Asian markets have dropped a tad because of competition from the US due to how bad the US dollar is now. It's sad actually but if I take the $per/kg you get live weight, convert it, and add another third onto it that's what we're getting at the markets. The feedlots in the east almost soley concentrate on producing high quality, marbled and tender beef.

And here's a diagram of the major beef exporters in the world in 2000 and 2005

Think before you open your mouth. Or at least have references to back yourself up with when you make statements like that.

 

[hillsdown]

Can you all quit your country bashing if you need to bash go to PB on Macons other forum Ranchers Net. I have and I am sure others have, heard/herd enough Bullsh%t spewed from both sides.

Also the chart does not say what is sold as trim and select and what is sold as choice and prime. Australia has always been recognized as cattle country as well as North America like Canada (especially Alberta) and the US.
South America has just come into the game recently in the last 10-15 years and their low dollar as well as no over head is moving them ahead in the game BUT their feed regulations are not even close to what they should be. Many countries had a great oportunity to move ahead with Canada's extensive BSE testing and cases being found the last 6 years as well as the odd testing and cases found in the US. But the borders are opening all over the world again our exports will be back where they were before BSE or even higher than that because of the testing that is being done and the extensive feed regulations for all of the ag industry.

 

[3waycross]

I have been selling premium boxed beef for 25 years at the wholesale level. I have yet to see ONE box that said product of Australia, and I work for the worlds largest wholesaler of food to the restuarant industry.

 

[aussie_cowgirl]

It still doesn't mean mnm can just go and make allegations like that. Maybe the beef we send to the US is ground grade but to say that most of our beef is ground grade is completely wrong and insulting. I do know that in Australia most forequarters are used for ground beef and the topline and high quarter is for choice cuts, but that is because of demand in the fast food industry and also because most people don't want the poorer forequarter cuts anymore. Australia doesn't import beef. Except maybe some wagyu. And all the high class restaurants seem to get by just fine with our "poor grade" beef just fine.

 

[3waycross]

It still doesn't mean mnm can just go and make allegations like that. Maybe the beef we send to the US is ground grade but to say that most of our beef is ground grade is completely wrong and insulting. I do know that in Australia most forequarters are used for ground beef and the topline and high quarter is for choice cuts, but that is because of demand in the fast food industry and also because most people don't want the poorer forequarter cuts anymore. Australia doesn't import beef. Except maybe some wagyu. And all the high class restaurants seem to get by just fine with our "poor grade" beef just fine.

The American beef industry has done an excellant job of defining and marketing some very good cuts from the forequarter. Specifically the Flatiron and the Terres Major. It has gone a long way towards getting more out of the carcass than just the middle meats and ground beef.

 

[aussie_cowgirl]

I'm not bashing the American beef. I'm just defending my own countries. The reason you won't see Australian boxes of beef in the American restaurant game is because of this (which I just found figures for)-

Composition of Australian beef exports
to US in 2008
Frozen cuts
46.6%
Chilled cuts
4.2%
Frozen manufacturing
49.2%

I can't imagine and restaurant using frozen beef. I'm not arguing about the promotion of forequarters. I was merely quoting something I heard from a research butcher. He just said people prefer hind quarter cuts here, that's all. I don't want to argue about this subject. In fact I don't want to argue about any subject but that seems to be all people want to do. I'm not the one bashing your cattle, so please don't take it out on me. And please don't make unfair and inaccurate accusations about the product produced in my country. If you have a personal issue, keep it personal.

 

[aussie_cowgirl]

Can you all quit your country bashing if you need to bash go to PB on Macons other forum Ranchers Net. I have and I am sure others have, heard/herd enough Bullsh%t spewed from both sides.

Also the chart does not say what is sold as trim and select and what is sold as choice and prime. Australia has always been recognized as cattle country as well as North America like Canada (especially Alberta) and the US.
South America has just come into the game recently in the last 10-15 years and their low dollar as well as no over head is moving them ahead in the game BUT their feed regulations are not even close to what they should be. Many countries had a great oportunity to move ahead with Canada's extensive BSE testing and cases being found the last 6 years as well as the odd testing and cases found in the US. But the borders are opening all over the world again our exports will be back where they were before BSE or even higher than that because of the testing that is being done and the extensive feed regulations for all of the ag industry.

Sorry HD, I don't like it as much as the next person. But I also can't let false accusations pass me.

Do you know if they have finalised the protein testing for BSE? I was reading about it last week I think and it looks promising.

 

[hillsdown]

Aussie, of course you have the right to defend your industry. I just do not think either side should be attacking AND I MEAN EITHER SIDE.

So lets just stop it right now ,and get onto enjoying all breeds of cattle all over the world.. The whole thing is just petty, especially as we all are insignificant on the whole scheme of things.

No not that I have heard. I have been reading the same as well. The research actually is leading more to manganese and copper .

Here is a really interesting article.
http://www.ranchers.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=37288

NEW! BSE Copper and Manganese hmmm... sounds familiar
Quote:
Brain Res. 2009 Jul 24.
Role of copper and manganese in prion disease progression.

Mitteregger G, Korte S, Shakarami M, Herms J, Kretzschmar HA.
Center for Neuropathology and Prion Research, Ludwig-Maximilians-University, Feodor-Lynen-Str. 23, 81377 Munich, Germany.

The cellular prion protein (PrP(C)), a copper binding protein has primary role in the pathogenesis of in prion diseases. In these diseases alterations in the levels of copper and manganese have been described but how these alterations are involved in the pathogenesis is still unknown. Here we analysed synaptosomes of scrapie-infected mice and observed a significant reduction in the amount of copper and an increase of the manganese content at day 100 after infection. Moreover a reduction of the copper content in mouse brains induced by application of copper poor diets was found to reduce the survival time of scrapie infected mice significantly, whereas enhanced administration of copper induced a significant delay in prion disease onset. Interestingly a significant higher amount of PrP(C) full length and misfolded PK-resistant PrP was observed in mice that were treated with an enhanced copper diet compared to controls. Moreover we could demonstrate that in healthy mock-infected mice, a Cu(2+) rich/Mn(2+) poor diet induced a significantly decreased cleavage capability of PrP(C) compared to control mice. These new findings suggest that the copper content in mouse brains exerts an influence on the amount of PrP(C) and its cleavage properties and may affect the PrP conversion by depleted availability of functional PrP full length.

PMID: 19635464


Back to the beginning, Mark Purdey's findings, and asking the important question, "why is manganese content in the brain upregulated in prion diseases?"

Quote:
Med Microbiol Immunol. 2009 Jul 25.

Manganese-induced changes of the biochemical characteristics of the recombinant wild-type and mutant PrPs.

Li XL, Dong CF, Wang GR, Zhou RM, Shi Q, Tian C, Gao C, Mei GY, Chen C, Xu K, Han J, Dong XP.
State Key Laboratory for Infectious Disease Prevention and Control, National Institute for Viral Disease Control and Prevention, Chinese Center for Disease Control and Prevention, Ying-Xin Rd 100, Beijing, 100052, People's Republic of China.

Manganese may play some roles in the pathogenesis of prion diseases. In this study, recombinant human wild-type (WT) PrP and PrP mutants with deleted or inserted octarepeats were exposed to manganese, and their biochemical and biophysical characteristics were evaluated by proteinase K (PK) digestion, sedimentation experiments, transmission electron microscopy and circular dichroism. It demonstrated that incubation of manganese remarkably increased PK-resistances, protein aggregations and beta-sheet contents of the PrPs. Moreover, the PrP mutants of inserted or deleted octarepeats were much vulnerable to the influence of manganese, which showed obviously more aggregation and higher beta-sheet content than that of WT-PrP. It highlights that the effect of manganese on the PrP seems to lie on the incorrectness of the octarepeats numbers. The association of the octarepeats number of PrP with manganese may further provide insight into the unresolved biological function of PrP in the neurons.

 

[3waycross]

For the record; you would be amazed at how many cases of FROZEN steaks I sell a week.

Probably 40%

Right now my market is about 15% White Tablecloth. That's the main reason. I also sell to a lot of Mexican restuarants. They NEVER buy anything but frozen steaks. Primarily liquid tenderized T-bones, Porterhouses and NY Strips.

 

[hillsdown]

My opinion only and preference ,as usually these are priced relatively the same, NY strip no thanks, Tbone or porter ? ,porter for sure but I would rather have rib eye or fillet minion and sometimes sirloin is even better than NY strip.

But nothing is better than your own raised beef "finished properly" which I am sure you will agree to as well 3way.

The day of fresh cuts for restaurants are far and few between, even the top rated restaurants all around the world use frozen beef sometimes.

 

[Herefords.US]

Since I've frequently hi-jacked other people's threads in the past, I guess it's entirely fitting that one of mine gets derailed. It had pretty well run its course anyway. So, carry on!

Well since you're being stubborn, and I was trying to be kind in an earlier post. The bull SUCKS George, if you keep him because you think he will be a "maternal bull" it's single trait selection, which never works in the long run. He as nothing else to offer from what I can see. Let the cows take care of the maternal side, and get something that at least resembles a bull for the masculine side.

But I did want to respond to rocket's post! Don't use that "kindness" crap and pull punches on me, rocket! I always want to know what you REALLY think! Thanks for finally coming through! And I think the frank advice you gave was sound - and just what I needed to get (push) me off the fence.

George

 

[aussie_cowgirl]

I'm trying to diet and now I feel like steaks :/. And you can't beat a fresh one. I have to agree Hills, fillet is my all time favourite closely followed by sirloin. They can keep their scotch, Tbone and rump. :lol: Sorry for the derailment HerefordUS.

 

[mnmtranching]

FASonline.
Everybody read though the site.
It's exactly as I have said.
The only significant high quality beef the US imports is from Canada.
There are no barriers restricting the import of high quality beef from Australia. If it were available, it would be here.
I'm not saying Australia doesn't have high quality beef.
I can't see where all the bashing of US beef comes from.

Google it up. FASonline or World Beef Exporting Countries. [everybody]

United States: Beef exports for 2004 are forecast to set another record at 1.2 million tons, up 1 percent from the 2003 estimate. Exports are forecast to expand, reaching a record 10 percent of production. The United States is the primary high quality beef supplier to the world, producing high value grain fed beef, verses the non-fed beef produced in Australia and South America. However, U.S. beef production is forecast to fall 5 percent to 11.6 million tons in 2004 as cattle supplies continue to tighten resulting from herd liquidation since 1996 and drought in many areas. Assuming a return to normal pasture conditions, higher cow and heifer retention for herd rebuilding during 2004 will mean reduced slaughter of female animals. This will in turn reduce domestic consumption, which is forecast to fall for the second year in a row to nearly 12 million tons in 2004

 

[alacattleman]

I know he would look a lot different if he would have been fed 10-15 pounds of grain a day.
I think the way hes been raised hes a honest bull and a decent commercial herd bull prospect.

he may be honest,, but it dont cover up structural flaws.

By structural flaws, I'm assuming you are talking about his shoulders. What could such a "flaw" affect? Why is it so relevant?

alot of commercial breeder's are more paticular than reg. seedstock producers.. but in a commercial herd that retains heifers. out of those old cow lines they want too keep .. no wouldnt use him..

Now this is where we possibly disagree. I think if this bull has value as a breeding bull, it will be in the very maternal daughters that he produces.
Sorry, these are the only pictures I've got right now.

George

maternal daughters sired by a open shoulder bull. a defect that can cause calving problems... if you like him thats fine.. i just told you why i wouldnt use him

 

[3waycross]

FASonline.
Everybody read though the site.
It's exactly as I have said.
The only significant high quality beef the US imports is from Canada.
There are no barriers restricting the import of high quality beef from Australia. If it were available, it would be here.
I'm not saying Australia doesn't have high quality beef.
I can't see where all the bashing of US beef comes from.

Google it up. FASonline or World Beef Exporting Countries. [everybody]

United States: Beef exports for 2004 are forecast to set another record at 1.2 million tons, up 1 percent from the 2003 estimate. Exports are forecast to expand, reaching a record 10 percent of production. The United States is the primary high quality beef supplier to the world, producing high value grain fed beef, verses the non-fed beef produced in Australia and South America. However, U.S. beef production is forecast to fall 5 percent to 11.6 million tons in 2004 as cattle supplies continue to tighten resulting from herd liquidation since 1996 and drought in many areas. Assuming a return to normal pasture conditions, higher cow and heifer retention for herd rebuilding during 2004 will mean reduced slaughter of female animals. This will in turn reduce domestic consumption, which is forecast to fall for the second year in a row to nearly 12 million tons in 2004

As long as we're hijacking here I thought this was very interesting. It is an excerpt from an article on why Australian beef exports are up this year. I see no mention of marbled beef here. However I did find another article about New Zealnd beef finding a niche market in Japan as GRASS FED.


SYDNEY (Reuters) - Australia's beef exports are forecast to rise 3.4 percent in 2009 to a new record, boosted by a sharply depreciated Australian dollar and persistent robust demand in some markets, Meat & Livestock Australia's chief analyst Peter Weeks said on Monday.

"Exports have got off to a pretty good start for the year, helped by the fall in the Australian dollar," Weeks said in an interview in Sydney as part of the Reuters Food and Agriculture Summit.

"It's basically the low (Australian) dollar that's making our exports so affordable -- in Japan our prices in yen terms are about 40 percent lower than what they were a year ago."

Weeks said Australia, which is the world's No. 2 beef exporter after Brazil, also benefited from a track record of producing disease products whose origins could be easily traced.

"We've been in a good position to capitalize on the integrity of Australian beef as we've had traceability systems in place that really do put us a step ahead," he said.