East Caney
Well-known member
Rosie is cow hocked. Should she have been culled at weaning and never given a chance to raise 12 calves? Was someone too forgiving? Or, were they just smart enough to let the heifer cull herself from the herd?
EC
EC
Bag Score by the numbers
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rocket2222
Well-known member
I would really like to say yes, but beings I have a couple that look about the same shape as hers, and they are still here, so I would have to say no at this time. I also agree that if they get to the point where one of them [teats] needs to be milked down for the calf to nurse, the cow should be shipped. Even though the cows I have, have maintenance free udders, and, despite Knersie calling me anal, 
udder quality is pretty high on my "things I need to address" list. Just a little side note, I started culling harder for udder quality about the same time I started selecting for more doing ability, and I have noticed a drop in the milk epd numbers, but its doesn't seem to have affected actual weaning weights.
udder quality is pretty high on my "things I need to address" list. Just a little side note, I started culling harder for udder quality about the same time I started selecting for more doing ability, and I have noticed a drop in the milk epd numbers, but its doesn't seem to have affected actual weaning weights.Northern Rancher
Well-known member
The problem is that you start keeping heifers off cows whose udder is just good 'enough' and pretty soon it becomes an issue. Any sloppy uddered cows get their heifers sent to the feedlot. If I go to a purebred outfit and he's trying to sell me a bull off a cow I'd cull it's 'too bad -so sad-I'm outa here' It will be a cold day in h..l that I milk out a cow so her calf can suck that went out with disco.
djinwa
Well-known member
Okay, dumb question from an amateur observer.
If Herefords get cancer eye and sunburned bags, seems they aren't designed for places where the sun shines. I see trying to get pigment around the eyes, but how do you get pigment on the bag?
Almost seems like you could just get a breed with color and not have to fight the pale skin.
If Herefords get cancer eye and sunburned bags, seems they aren't designed for places where the sun shines. I see trying to get pigment around the eyes, but how do you get pigment on the bag?
Almost seems like you could just get a breed with color and not have to fight the pale skin.
djinwa":7bmoq4n9 said:
I live where the sun pretty much SHINES! all the time and neither sunburned udders nor cancer eye is a problem here. Don't know how much glare from snow would affect unpigmented teats as I don't have a snow problem here, but I look at enough cattle to know that herefords certainly aren't the only breed with unpigmented udders in general.
Cancer eye has got as much to do with eyeset as it has with pigment, the breed I have seen the most cases of cancer eye is jerseys and they have black pigment around the eyes, but they typically have bulging bug eyes.
Pigment can be achieved on the teats and most of my cows have some pigment on the teats, but fixing that into your herd is easier said than done. There is supposed to be a correlation between scrotal pigment and teat pigment so other than always using bulls with pigmented scrotums I don't know how you're really going to select for pigmented teats.
In Nesikep's commercial operation I'd say he was smart enough to know how much is still acceptable without affecting longevity. In a seedstock operation I wouldn't have tolerated it as I don't want to show a potential bull buyer the dam of the bull he is interested in and then having to explain why she is cowhocked. The same goes for udders, a good functional no maintenance udder is a good functional no maintenance udder, once you cross over that point its just a beauty contest. Maybe my minimum standards are higher than most others, I certainly don't have a single bad udder in either the commercial or registered herd and haven't milked out a single cow because the calf couldn't nurse nor will I ever keep a cow that needs help calving or getting the calf to nurse.
I just get the impression that if you (not referring to anyone specific here) lack the eye to select for the complete package for soundness, production and longevity its easy to focus on a relatively simple thing like udders and take that to the extreme. The hard fact is that a perfect udder don't mean anything if the cow's legs or feet gave in or she comes up open or gets cancer eye before she has reached the end of her expected productive life.
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
I grew up a "city girl", but had heard this expression pretty much all my life. Than, we "went country" back in '69. Our neighbor raised pigs. I found out that tits on a boar IS IMPORTANT. The number of teats pass on to his daughters. Hog breeders actually pay close attention to boar hogs TEATS!!! :lol2:
I viewed this post before anyone commented. I didn't make any comment, because I also felt ALL the udders were good. The Hereford Assn.'s score is 1-4 (I believe). That's breaking it down plenty.
You know - they're BAD, PRETTY BAD, PRETTY GOOD & GOOD. That's enough.
Northern Rancher
Well-known member
I have cows that have an udder that is acceptable to raise calves for a lot of years but not good enough to keep replacement heifers from-I usually just send their calves to a feedlot. It's pretty hard to sunburn a good tight well attached udder I've found.
Brandonm22
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East Caney":3amny5rx said:
Rosie is FOURTEEN. Of course her feet and legs are starting to break down some from what they where when she was two. I bet her udder was better then and she was easier fleshing then too. I have seen four year olds who looked a lot worse though.
From the most recent BEEF magazine:
Practical Udder Scoring
May 1, 2009 12:00 PM, By Dan Kniffen
An emphasis on udder quality can aid in culling decisions.
Udder and teat quality are two functional characteristics of the cow that often go unnoticed until problems arise. Just as seedstock producers put selection pressure on birth, weaning and yearling weights, the same concern and effort should be placed on udder quality.
"Take the time to observe, record and report," says Twig Marston, University of Nebraska Extension beef specialist, Norfolk. "At calving, we now record birth date and weight, calving ease and administer ID. Why not take 30 more seconds to make cows better?"
Score udders and teats
To effectively score a cow, udders and teats must be scored separately. Such a system must be simple, direct and memorable without requiring the user to refer to charts and photographs.
The system's real purpose is to place a value on an udder and teats that will provide descriptive information that relates to the effectiveness with which a newborn calf can find a teat quickly and nurse without assistance.
To accurately score an udder and teats to reflect exactly what confronts the newborn calf requires that such scoring be completed as the new calf first attempts to nurse. Thus, scoring should be completed as close to the actual time of calving as possible, and preferably prior to the calf nursing for the first time. After all, removal of some of the milk will result in the reduction of the actual size of the udder and teats and thus lead to inaccurate udder and teat scores.
A basic four-grade scoring system of A, B, C and D for udders, and a corresponding four-score system of 1, 2, 3 and 4 for teats, provides an effective and descriptive scoring tool that's easy to remember and applicable by anyone. Such a system provides necessary information for management decisions.
Scoring udders
An A udder score is the highest quality — held up high, snug and close to the body, above the hocks in the rear and level across the floor and forward to a firmly attached front. From the rear, the udder should have an extremely strong cleft.
B udder — hangs either at or just slightly lower than level with the hocks. It is slightly lower at the front suspension with an intermediate attachment.
C udder — when viewed from the rear is slightly to below the hocks, and the cleft will be slight to weak. The front attachment is loosely connected and beginning to hang low.
D udder — very deep, hanging well below the hocks, with a cleft that's very weak to nonexistent. The front suspension is extremely loose, hanging well below the midsection of the cow, and the udder is absent of structure, shape and conformation.
A D udder hangs so low as to make initial nursing for the newborn calf difficult. Such cows should be recorded for culling from the herd at weaning time or before the next calving season.
Scoring teats
Teats are scored individually and separate from udders. A 1 score represents the best teats; a 4 is the lowest quality.
A 1 score reflects a small diameter teat of short length. For comparison, a 1 teat would be similar to comparing the little finger of a human hand to the rest of the fingers.
A teat scoring 2 is larger in diameter and length but still very functional. In the context of the human hand, a 2 teat would be an index finger, with a 1 teat being the little finger.
A 3 score represents a diameter and length that could become problematic for the calf to begin nursing in the next year or more. In relation to a human hand, it would be a thumb compared to the little finger, or a teat three times the diameter of the teat with a score of 1.
A 4 score is reserved for teats that most likely will require management assistance to get a calf started nursing. These teats would be comparable in size to the entire fist of the hand. These cows should be recorded and culled at weaning or before the next calving season.
Let's get started
While this proposed scoring system appears very basic, it fulfills a need that currently isn't being met by more complex scoring systems that require significant training and reference materials. Thus, a basic system put to practical use is of more value than a more complex system that is little used.
And another:
Udder and teat scoring beef cows
Apr 12, 2009 7:54 PM, Source: UNL Beef Production; By: Rick Rasby, Ph.D.
Save time and money through udder and teat scoring
The conformation of a beef cow's teats and udder are important in a profitable cow/calf enterprise. Females with poor udder and teat conformation are a management challenge for commercial cow/calf producers. Cattle producers do not have the time or labor to manage around cows that need intervention at calving to physically "milk-out" a quarter(s) so that the calf can suckle or to save the quarter from infection. Research findings in two experiments indicates that the occurrence of clinical mastitis in beef cow herds was 17.5% and 11.9% resulting in a reduction in weaning weights of 12.5% and 7.3%, respectively. Poor udder and teat conformation can potentially lead to increased calf sickness as teats may be contaminated with mud and debris from a lot or calving area before the calf suckles. Although selecting and culling based on conformation of teats and udders may be considered convenience trait selection, selecting against poor teats and udders increases profit potential by increasing calf performance, reducing calf sickness, increasing longevity of the cow, and reducing labor inputs. Udder and teat conformation is moderately heritable (h2 of udder attachment = 0.2 to 0.3; h2 of teat size = 0.5), so enhancing teat and udder quality can be accomplished by selecting bulls who's female offspring have good teat and udder conformation and by not selecting replacement heifers from dams that have marginal teat and udder conformation. When selecting bulls from your seedstock provider, request the udder score of his dam or visually appraise the udder of the dam to help reduce undesirable udder conformation in your herd.
Practical Udder Scoring
May 1, 2009 12:00 PM, By Dan Kniffen
An emphasis on udder quality can aid in culling decisions.
Udder and teat quality are two functional characteristics of the cow that often go unnoticed until problems arise. Just as seedstock producers put selection pressure on birth, weaning and yearling weights, the same concern and effort should be placed on udder quality.
"Take the time to observe, record and report," says Twig Marston, University of Nebraska Extension beef specialist, Norfolk. "At calving, we now record birth date and weight, calving ease and administer ID. Why not take 30 more seconds to make cows better?"
Score udders and teats
To effectively score a cow, udders and teats must be scored separately. Such a system must be simple, direct and memorable without requiring the user to refer to charts and photographs.
The system's real purpose is to place a value on an udder and teats that will provide descriptive information that relates to the effectiveness with which a newborn calf can find a teat quickly and nurse without assistance.
To accurately score an udder and teats to reflect exactly what confronts the newborn calf requires that such scoring be completed as the new calf first attempts to nurse. Thus, scoring should be completed as close to the actual time of calving as possible, and preferably prior to the calf nursing for the first time. After all, removal of some of the milk will result in the reduction of the actual size of the udder and teats and thus lead to inaccurate udder and teat scores.
A basic four-grade scoring system of A, B, C and D for udders, and a corresponding four-score system of 1, 2, 3 and 4 for teats, provides an effective and descriptive scoring tool that's easy to remember and applicable by anyone. Such a system provides necessary information for management decisions.
Scoring udders
An A udder score is the highest quality — held up high, snug and close to the body, above the hocks in the rear and level across the floor and forward to a firmly attached front. From the rear, the udder should have an extremely strong cleft.
B udder — hangs either at or just slightly lower than level with the hocks. It is slightly lower at the front suspension with an intermediate attachment.
C udder — when viewed from the rear is slightly to below the hocks, and the cleft will be slight to weak. The front attachment is loosely connected and beginning to hang low.
D udder — very deep, hanging well below the hocks, with a cleft that's very weak to nonexistent. The front suspension is extremely loose, hanging well below the midsection of the cow, and the udder is absent of structure, shape and conformation.
A D udder hangs so low as to make initial nursing for the newborn calf difficult. Such cows should be recorded for culling from the herd at weaning time or before the next calving season.
Scoring teats
Teats are scored individually and separate from udders. A 1 score represents the best teats; a 4 is the lowest quality.
A 1 score reflects a small diameter teat of short length. For comparison, a 1 teat would be similar to comparing the little finger of a human hand to the rest of the fingers.
A teat scoring 2 is larger in diameter and length but still very functional. In the context of the human hand, a 2 teat would be an index finger, with a 1 teat being the little finger.
A 3 score represents a diameter and length that could become problematic for the calf to begin nursing in the next year or more. In relation to a human hand, it would be a thumb compared to the little finger, or a teat three times the diameter of the teat with a score of 1.
A 4 score is reserved for teats that most likely will require management assistance to get a calf started nursing. These teats would be comparable in size to the entire fist of the hand. These cows should be recorded and culled at weaning or before the next calving season.
Let's get started
While this proposed scoring system appears very basic, it fulfills a need that currently isn't being met by more complex scoring systems that require significant training and reference materials. Thus, a basic system put to practical use is of more value than a more complex system that is little used.
And another:
Udder and teat scoring beef cows
Apr 12, 2009 7:54 PM, Source: UNL Beef Production; By: Rick Rasby, Ph.D.
Save time and money through udder and teat scoring
The conformation of a beef cow's teats and udder are important in a profitable cow/calf enterprise. Females with poor udder and teat conformation are a management challenge for commercial cow/calf producers. Cattle producers do not have the time or labor to manage around cows that need intervention at calving to physically "milk-out" a quarter(s) so that the calf can suckle or to save the quarter from infection. Research findings in two experiments indicates that the occurrence of clinical mastitis in beef cow herds was 17.5% and 11.9% resulting in a reduction in weaning weights of 12.5% and 7.3%, respectively. Poor udder and teat conformation can potentially lead to increased calf sickness as teats may be contaminated with mud and debris from a lot or calving area before the calf suckles. Although selecting and culling based on conformation of teats and udders may be considered convenience trait selection, selecting against poor teats and udders increases profit potential by increasing calf performance, reducing calf sickness, increasing longevity of the cow, and reducing labor inputs. Udder and teat conformation is moderately heritable (h2 of udder attachment = 0.2 to 0.3; h2 of teat size = 0.5), so enhancing teat and udder quality can be accomplished by selecting bulls who's female offspring have good teat and udder conformation and by not selecting replacement heifers from dams that have marginal teat and udder conformation. When selecting bulls from your seedstock provider, request the udder score of his dam or visually appraise the udder of the dam to help reduce undesirable udder conformation in your herd.
regolith
Well-known member
I would have thought the only acceptable udder out of that list was A.
I know this isn't my line of business - but a cow calving down with an udder at or below hock level (B or over) I'd consider an indication to watch carefully to ensure that calf found the teats, possibly assist. Maybe beef calves are brighter than dairy ones?
D describes my culls. When they're only five and six years old I get annoyed.
There can be extremes... This trait can certainly be taken too far in dairy heifers.
There is extremes in just about every trait you can think of. Extremely thin teats and extremely tight udders often equates to very limited milking ability.
A common sense approach to udder selection will yield satisfactory long term results without the udder grading A1.
KMacGinley
Well-known member
A good udder is any udder that doesn't require my assistance to get the calf going. I got caught out on one bull and have two left that need about 4 days in a pen with bottle feeding until they go it alone. That is why I always see the bull's mother before I buy one.
Add that to the list of important things that EPDs will never tell you.
Add that to the list of important things that EPDs will never tell you.
Nesikep
Well-known member
well, with Rosie, she's always well tempered, I never have to put her in a chute to give her shots, she's never had her hoofs trimmed (and they are pasture cows), and I get a calf every year... sure, there are always higher standards to breed by, and if you're a seedstock producer, i completely encourage it, but if you're a beef operation, you don't get rewarded for a steer that comes from a cow with an "A" udder, neither for a heifer... none of Rosies kin have the best toplines either, they all have a dip around the tail, but when she delivers a 100 b calf, her daughter's first calf was 110, and her sister had a 145 lb calf, all without help, that's what will pay at the end of the season for a beef producer. her sister (my "horse") is also the family dairy cow who gets fed nothing but hay, and I get over 1 quart of milk from 1 quarter every milking, and considering the calf sucks every 4 hours or so, you can figure he gets 15 quarts a day or something.. little surprise he gains weight.. and she pays for her keep just giving us our daily milk.
I guess I'll turn into a broken record here, echoing what many have already said, yes, good udders are wonderful, but that alone doesn't make a good cow, and until you have a herd started, you can't cull for all defects at once or you'd have nothing left... we have culled for prolapses, we don't have any of them anymore... we've culled for BAD udders, we don't have any of them left, we culled for bad hoofs, and don't have them anymore either, so now that those are done, we can refine more and more what we look for
I guess it was to be forseen that the topic of teats would be a hotly contested item
I guess I'll turn into a broken record here, echoing what many have already said, yes, good udders are wonderful, but that alone doesn't make a good cow, and until you have a herd started, you can't cull for all defects at once or you'd have nothing left... we have culled for prolapses, we don't have any of them anymore... we've culled for BAD udders, we don't have any of them left, we culled for bad hoofs, and don't have them anymore either, so now that those are done, we can refine more and more what we look for
I guess it was to be forseen that the topic of teats would be a hotly contested item
