Bad feet Scott angus cattle

[chevytaHOE5674]

It's not hard to have good animals and make more money by it.

My cracked/crooked toe cow would probably have been culled by your criteria.

But put the numbers out there for me on how culling her would make me more money. 12 calves in 13 years. Replacements from her with good feet, steers weaning in the top 13% of my herd, and nearly forgetting she exists because she just works.

So if I culled her and bought one with good feet where would I have made more money?

generally curious?

 

[mwj]

Breeding programs for replacements and breeding for beef are vastly different programs. Do people cull a bottom percentage of there cattle or cull all of them since there are no perfect cattle?

 

[Ky hills]

@chevytaHOE5674 @mwj in my experience culling is an individual tolerance. I can tell you where culling heavy has left me, short on cows, and I ain't seen all that money that the expensive elusive good ones supposedly make, because if you sell a lot of your cows, it's hard to replace them with much better for the same money. Then there's the whole matter of are they really gonna be better even if you spend more on them? They might be better in some ways but almost guaranteed they ain't gonna be perfect either.
I'll cull pretty hard for disposition and lack of milk, or fertility issues. If they don't calve, can't raise a calf, or are a pain or dangerous to work with they gone.
I'm not as likely to care about culling out a cow that does what she is supposed to, but might not have great feet. If it's an imminent significant problem yes cull. But for example I've got a cow that has a bad looking udder, big teats. I knew it was going to be a problem at some point, but she's raised 5-6 good big calves. Selling her soon rather than chance a problem but how would selling her sooner made any more money?

 

[Travlr]

My cracked/crooked toe cow would probably have been culled by your criteria.

But put the numbers out there for me on how culling her would make me more money. 12 calves in 13 years. Replacements from her with good feet, steers weaning in the top 13% of my herd, and nearly forgetting she exists because she just works.

So if I culled her and bought one with good feet where would I have made more money?

generally curious?

So you want me to come up with hypothetical situations that would make your exception to the rule a bad choice? We can both think of those but they are still hypotheticals. You took a chance and it worked out. Have you ever culled a cow because she had trouble walking? Have you seen cows with bad feet being sold because they were limping? Have you ever culled for a rat-tail, or a cow that throws too much chrome? Bad udder, light weight calves, failure to take a calf? All hypotheticals until you do it.
Yeah, I can imagine scenarios where a cow with bad feet can cost me money. Especially when don't have to buy her to begin with.

 

[Travlr]

I had a registered cow year ago, that had less than desirable legs and feet. She had an AI bull calf that while a young yearling I watched him walk and decided to sell him as a feeder. Cow was rebred and had a young calf by the same sire. She had a heifer that time. Her legs were off some too, and I never registered any of her calves always sold the bulls as steers. I retained that daughter just used her as commercial cow. I culled her out at 11 years old last year. She was loosing condition and it could have been getting hard for her to get around. She had been one of my best calf raising cows. She held up good for all her calves and seemed like she have all she had to the last one. I knew it was time to sell her.
Another time I bought a group of commercial heifers at the stockyards at around 550# in the fall. Over time I noticed one developing screw claw pretty severely. Culled her out. In a case like that it developed fairly quick and would have cause obvious problems.
The bull I have now was critiqued on here by several as well as I myself for not having great leg shape and shallow heel depth. He's two now and moves very fast. We're into commercial cattle now and needed a bull in a pinch mid season last summer.
He's not a perfect bull but can't really justify bringing in another &4000-or more$ bull at this time.
I'll show the good, bad and ugly on here from my herd and try to show others what we are doing that may or may not be working for us.
Not every animal or management is going to work for everybody.

And everyone here has exceptions and sometimes they work and sometimes they don't. Sometimes we can breed the problems out and sometimes the problem will show up a generation or two later. And sometimes someone is less caring about problems and some more. I'd rather spend a few cents more to have better cattle and I've seen the benefits when I sell the calves they produce. I've never tried buying the cheapest cows because I see what they produce and what those calves get at the sale barn. A better cow eats the same and takes the same amount of care and effort as a cheap cow that produces a less valuable calf. And if I have a problem cow I look for a bull that will correct her problem.

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

@Ky hills I'm the same way. Cull for obvious things like fertility, temperament, weaning weight, etc then feet and udder if they become a problem. But I've yet to cull a cow and take the money I get from her and turn around and buy "better".

 

[coachg]

Bought a bull a few years back at a production sale of a well known angus breeder . Really looked close at his feet and liked his breeding and epds. Got him home and after a week I noticed a big corn between one of his front hooves . Called them ; they brought me a replacement and picked him up . I don't know if it was groomed over or I just missed it . But most reputable breeders will work with you . If you private message me I'll share the farm name but not here.

 

[StrojanHerefords]

Back in the old days, if a bull or a cow would go lame that would be the end of their breeding career. Now with AI and ET often times if a good cow goes lame, she will be flushed and those bad constitution genes will be propagated.

 

[Ky hills]

Back in the old days, if a bull or a cow would go lame that would be the end of their breeding career. Now with AI and ET often times if a good cow goes lame, she will be flushed and those bad constitution genes will be propagated.

Therein lies a lot of the problem.

 

[Stonewall Joe]

Maybe... and when everybody is breeding cattle that compete with the average Corriente I guess we should all be proud of that.

I've been watching this thread and havent seen anyone aspiring for corriente quality

 

[CSM]

The photo does not show the cattle in a positive way and probably should not have been used for advertising if it was. We can't see any evidence that these calves will be sold as breeding stock or anything deceptive was done.

 

[Travlr]

I've been watching this thread and havent seen anyone aspiring for corriente quality

Not consciously...

Breeding practices have slipped and lately it seems to be all about making excuses. I don't want to say that. I want something better. Just like I want to see better cattle. But today's cattle are not what they were in former days. An uncomfortable truth for me. I wish it were different. In a hundred years Corriente may be the best beef cattle and what people aspire too.

 

[farmerjan]

I've been on here a few years longer than the OP.... and I have said a few things over the years that may have been "short and curt", but I cannot think of one time that I had the bad manners to openly disparage a persons cattle and the even worse manners to do so using their name in such a way. To not personally and privately tell them is wrong.... That is just not respectful... AND especially when YOU ARE NOT A REGULAR POSTER, that most people "kinda get to know" and get a feel for how you say/print things....

I have to agree with another poster that said, yes, discuss the poorer quality of the feet, but to publicly post the name is just poor etiquette.

And I have to agree, to a degree, those calves may have had poor feet/hooves...if the pictures are what they seem to be.... if they were posted and advertised as REPLACEMENTS then that is "bad" on the owner/breeders part. But I am with @chevytaHOE5674 in the regard that no one is forcing anyone to buy something with problems like that.
Like @Ky hills ...... when I started out, I had mediocre animals... could NOT AFFORD a nice pedigreed bull... even a "low end one". Bought a couple bulls from the stockyards so that the cows would get pregnant... had dairy crosses and some pretty sorry, back forty cattle to start. Still have average cattle, probably will never have the really NICE cattle that @TCRanch has.... Bless her for the beautiful cows she has and the kind of calves she raises that most any of us would be happy to have.....
Dealt with the bad feet, cow hocks, not great udders... Kept on improving them... bought some "old cows" like @Dave does, kept some heifers... kept some of those cows until they were not just old but toothless wonders.... got a few more heifers. Kept some, culled some... Bought some of the "older cows" from dispersals... my thoughts being if they were around this long, then they must have been paying their way... Bought a group of bred heifers, and 3 years all but 3 were gone... bought a group of cows and most lasted 2-4 years. I am with the group that culls for ATTITUDE, FERTILITY/breeding back, ABILITY TO RAISE A CALF that will fit in with at least average of what else I have... The ability to raise a calf goes back to udders/ milk production... and I have kept some with pretty ugly udders if the calves can get latched on and they milk good.
No, my cattle aren't going to be the ones that run out loose/wild and fend for yourself, and get no help ever....... but I don't want any that need to be babied... I do not want cattle that need feed all the time... unless they are a dairy cow raising 3-4 at a time and I want her to milk like all get out.... I want cows that will raise up a decent saleable calf at weaning.. bigger weaning weights is good, average weaning weights are fully acceptable.
Feet and legs are important... they need to walk and graze... but we have a couple that have one toe that will overgrow... and it gets trimmed once a year, with a pair of lopping shears , while in the chute to be preg checked... and have 2 heifers out of one of them that are on their 3-5 calves and not a foot problem in sight. Some of that is feed.... too much protein that can cause a "founder like" excessive growth...
I will not use a bull that has problem feet. That said, we have a neighbor that has a bull with bad overgrown back feet... have them trimmed when vet is here to do preg checks... you cannot convince him to sell him because his disposition is wonderful... and this year his calving rate is dismal... but he won't listen so that is his problem... bull is fat to the point of obese now, feet probably prevent him from getting around like he should be and he is not breeding the cows... THAT is the owners problem. He puts nice calves on the ground ... real nice heifers.. and although we like their shape and all, will NEVER knowingly buy one.....

If a person is advertising those pictured, as breeding stock, then a person/potential buyer, needs to be educated enough to have a general knowledge of what to look for and know those feet are not ideal. If a person does not do their homework, and spends all kinds of money.... "because they have papers, or are from so and so farm" then they deserve to get what they get. You don't have to be an expert... you have to have some common sense and know the basics..

I am tired of people who make excuses for others that buy on impulse, or just reputation... learn something BEFORE you go buy. Reputations of GOOD FARMS are earned by NOT selling junk... with repeat buyers..... and if you jump in and just "buy something", that has some OBVIOUS problems, just because it is so and so's cattle... shame on you... That said, like me, what they buy might be better than what they have... and will "upgrade" when, if they can. Right now, even though putting it in perspective, cattle prices are high... costs are high too... so not out of line with costs... BUT... I will not spend 3-4,000 on a bred cow when there is no guarantee that the selling prices of their calves will stay up there long enough to make her pay. There are too many variables in this volatile market... As have many that have been in this game awhile, we have seen the bottom fall out in 6 months time and people that don't use common sense, wind up holding some very expensive cattle that will not be able to pay the buyer back for years..... I wish I had spent a little more and bought a few cows when there was an opportunity... and maybe not sold as many heifers as we have in the last 2 years. But it is pretty hard to hold on to a heifer worth over 2,000 that is not even bred yet...

I hope for all our sakes, it holds for a couple years at least... but in the meantime, I will keep what pays the bills, try to retain better heifers than their dams and sires were... and try to improve. I have my eyes open when I look at cattle.... and anyone that is serious enough to want to make this work, needs to do the same... educate yourself on what is good and bad... and if the ones in the picture are what you can afford, then so be it... go forth from there and improve on what you have... so the next generation gives you "better ones" to pick from.

 

[NIdahoShorthorns]

Presumably this is the outfit out of Nebraska? The disrespectful thing is not calling out a perceived purveyor of a bad product, it's not properly identifying the Ranch selling the cattle if you're going to call them out; there are already two speculative theories and Scott isn't exactly an uncommon surname. If you're in the business of selling seed stock you should be able to pull up your big boy pants and accept any criticism that comes your way. No one would dress down a poster if he was complaining about his Ford 6.0 Liter Power Stroke....

 

[Ky hills]

And everyone here has exceptions and sometimes they work and sometimes they don't. Sometimes we can breed the problems out and sometimes the problem will show up a generation or two later. And sometimes someone is less caring about problems and some more. I'd rather spend a few cents more to have better cattle and I've seen the benefits when I sell the calves they produce. I've never tried buying the cheapest cows because I see what they produce and what those calves get at the sale barn. A better cow eats the same and takes the same amount of care and effort as a cheap cow that produces a less valuable calf. And if I have a problem cow I look for a bull that will correct her problem.

I don't know where you get good cows for a few cents more, I know what your trying to say, but it's usually several hundred dollars per head more instead of just a small amount.
When you buy bottom end cows you don't have expectations of them being anything great. Sometimes there's potential in a thin cow sometimes not.
about 6 years ago we bought 20 head of bred cows, maybe 2-3 had calves at side.
a few were low end and I knew it the rest were fairly decent to good looking cows.
Fast forward two years after that all but one were culled. She is still here but is old and probably needs to go now too, but she keeps on having and raising a good calf.
I've also bought registered females (Angus, and Hereford) mainly as heifers from registered sales.
There's been a couple times where I've bought most of the heifer calves split from cows at particular sales. Those were the middle of the road calves. There's not supposed to be bottom end calves in those sales but there invariably are, and I am not interested in those as they are pretty obvious. I also am not a fan to buy a top end show prospect or donor prospect because those are considerably higher and from my experience they don't always pan out either, Not very fun or sensible to cull out an animal for market price that cost 3 times that.
I reckon a lot of what I'm trying to say is that just because something costs more doesn't guarantee that it will be that much better. I've had just as high or higher cull rates with registered cattle has commercial.
We have a neighbor that has run straight bred Jerseys for years as if they were beef cattle. Corriente would make as much sense, There is no management or business plan behind them hardly at all.
Their newest addition for a bull is a scrawny black bull calf that would make a low end steer. They probably think they have a good one now because it's black and doesn't have horns.
Another neighbor literally has 1 cow and one bull. That bull is likely around 2-3 years old red brindle and I expect him to come calling across the fence at any time.
In fact I never did pull my bull this spring because I was afraid that without him in the field the cows in heat would get around that bull and tempt him over the fence before I could get them moved.
There's a lot of situations out there.
I've always tried to have decent animals and management. Culling is a part of it, and breeding to improve is also a part,
Years ago I had a pretty good quality herd of registered Charolais.
My customers were mainly commercial breeders or people wanting to get started in registered cattle.
Several commercial folks approached me about lower end cattle. They actually wanted cheaper discounted cattle. Often that just meant a horned/dehorned bull instead of a polled one as the polled bulls were more sought after and were worth more in our market.
I tried to rank and price my bull calves according to my perception of quality.
I was a newer breeder and so I figure I got some folks that were looking for bargains that they wouldn't find at more established outfits.
I look back on it now and it was very noteworthy that a significant number of prospective buyers would ask right of the bat for the cheapest bulls. Then some might ask the price of a better one first then immediately ask what some others were priced for.
That said if I was aware of any issues then those animals were not offered for breeding stock, So the lower end bulls would have been horned, a little smaller maybe. Anything from calving trouble to any obvious structural unsoundness, flighty disposition was not sold for breeding stock.
I'm not taking up for anybody knowingly breeding problematic cattle.
I'm just saying that there are a lot of things to consider. If a cow is functioning ie raising a good calf and calving regularly on schedule then as you say try to breed to a bull that improves the shortcomings.
If a cow is defective and not producing then by all means it needs to go.

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

I'd rather spend a few cents more to have better cattle

Looked at the market report for the barn I sell at, high end of cull cows $140 at the last sale. So a productive 1400lb cull cow with mediocre feet would at best get you $1960. Cheapest bred "improvement" they sold that same day was $3500. That's a lot of cents difference.

 

[Travlr]

Looked at the market report for the barn I sell at, high end of cull cows $140 at the last sale. So a productive 1400lb cull cow with mediocre feet would at best get you $1960. Cheapest bred "improvement" they sold that same day was $3500. That's a lot of cents difference.

Apples and oranges...

I've done the same thing @Dave does, with my business model having an eye to raising replacement heifers and selling them in lots of 10 or 20, bred AI to good bulls. Dave's business model works for him and mine worked for me. I think Dave would not have the same dollar objective as I would because his cows and calves are intended to be one and dones, and mine had a different purpose. He might not have the same image of a cow he would bid on either. But they are all cull cows and I'd expect mine to be more money per animal, usually only cents per pound higher. If you want to nit pick the exceptions and invent differences that are only hypotheticals that don't really apply, I'll be here.

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

If you want to nit pick the exceptions and invent differences that are only hypotheticals that don't really apply, I'll be here.

Hypotheticals and exceptions? I've got pastures full of Hypotheticals and exceptions to your ideal world views.

The example I just gave would be the dollars and cents of culling one of my "bad footed" cows at last weeks sale and buying a hopefully/maybe better replacement. Nothing made up or hypothetical about it.

I'm glad you had pictures perfect cows and made money with them.

Some of us make just as much money with ordinary everyday cows.

Lots of ways to skin the cat in this game other than the way you did it.

 

[Travlr]

Some of us make just as much money with ordinary everyday cows.

Only in your imagination. But that's another hypothetical...

And the rest of your comments are just as imaginary...

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

Only in your imagination. But that's another hypothetical...

And the rest of your comments are just as imaginary...

My steers sold 4-5 cents off the top of the sale last fall, at my weight thats around $40/hd. Give me the break down of the numbers how culling a productive cow with "bad feet" for 1900 and spending an additional 1600 bucks for a replacment will pay off?

You laugh and think it's imaginary and make believe because it's not how you did it. Because in your head the only way is your way.