Aubrac X Piedmontese opinions?

[Big Bucks]

Darren, if you was going to slaughter him why did you leave him a bull? I recently talked to a Piedmontese guy that said he does not castrate his bulls because it makes them "muscle up better" for slaughter.

How does one muscle up without testosterone?

Then why castrate any bulls? Would we be better off to leave all the bulls un-castrated and let them remain leaner and muscle up?

Genetics will allow a bovine to muscle up without testosterone, isn't a Belgian Blue steer more muscled up than a Jersey bull?

 

[ANAZAZI]

There is much more muscle on a piedmontese bull than on a piedmontese steer.

 

[Taurus]

Judging from my neighbors Beligan blue cattle, they do castrated their bull calves and they still shows their muscles.

 

[Backbone Ranch]

Steers will put on muscling differently than bulls. Steers will have a softer look to them, while the bull is muscular and rugged. However, you can still get a very muscular steer if he has the myostatin gene, aka double-muscling.

 

[Backbone Ranch]

I just threw out the "1000 pound" figure for the cows. A frame 3 or 4 would be fine, I just don't want any 1500 pounders. I DO want them deep and THICK. I actually have been looking for a couple of Murray Grey cows/heifers to breed to my Aubrac bull but cant seem to find any in Central Illinois or even surrounding states. There are actually a few breeds that I would like to cross with Aubrac and then use the resulting F1 cows to breed to a Piedmontese bull for terminal cross. That would make the terminal calves 50% Piedmontese, 25% Aubrac and 25% other breeds. Anyone have any input on what breed(s) they would use as the "other 25%"?

I don't think I will have any problem marketing my beef. I will have a small herd of no more than 20 cows and I already have a waiting list.

Thanks for all the responses. I have been lurking on here for quite a while and finally decided to join in.

If you are willing to travel out of state, there is a Murray Grey and Square Meater breeder up in Indiana. He is about 50 miles east of Indianapolis. Square Meaters are essentially Murray Greys that fit in a certain phenotype range. They have similar capacity with less leg. I do not know if he has anything for sale, but he is AIing his cows to some famous sires of the breed. Such as the one below. I could give you his contact info if you would like.

 

[Big Bucks]

I just threw out the "1000 pound" figure for the cows. A frame 3 or 4 would be fine, I just don't want any 1500 pounders. I DO want them deep and THICK. I actually have been looking for a couple of Murray Grey cows/heifers to breed to my Aubrac bull but cant seem to find any in Central Illinois or even surrounding states. There are actually a few breeds that I would like to cross with Aubrac and then use the resulting F1 cows to breed to a Piedmontese bull for terminal cross. That would make the terminal calves 50% Piedmontese, 25% Aubrac and 25% other breeds. Anyone have any input on what breed(s) they would use as the "other 25%"?

I don't think I will have any problem marketing my beef. I will have a small herd of no more than 20 cows and I already have a waiting list.

Thanks for all the responses. I have been lurking on here for quite a while and finally decided to join in.

If you are willing to travel out of state, there is a Murray Grey and Square Meater breeder up in Indiana. He is about 50 miles east of Indianapolis. Square Meaters are essentially Murray Greys that fit in a certain phenotype range. They have similar capacity with less leg. I do not know if he has anything for sale, but he is AIing his cows to some famous sires of the breed. Such as the one below. I could give you his contact info if you would like.

I would absolutely like that contact info. Thank you!

 

[Big Bucks]

There is much more muscle on a piedmontese bull than on a piedmontese steer.

Here is where I was going with WalnutCrests post regarding the bull he slaughtered - Will leaving them bulls increase the yield percentage? I would think it would at least to a small degree even though I think feeding out bulls would lead to management issues that steers don't present. For one thing they would need to be penned separate from the heifers.

After hearing from the Piedmontese breeder that leaves his bulls un-castrated and then WalnutCrest posts about slaughtering a bull I was wondering if this is common in some of the more heavily muscled breeds.

 

[AllForage]

Big Buck, my comment was half joking as to your term "muscling up" which sounds kinda ridiculous. Now I may not know anything after direct marketing grass fed in the upper midwest for 13 years. Most folks here think I am a nut job. Just spoke with a friend in TX that finishes over 1000 head a year for a co-op and we talked about the management, carcasses, and genetics challenges of both places. Concepts are the same, but do not be fooled by those that have access to forage year round and expect their results, period. Also trying to supplement that quality of feed with preserved forage will bankrupt you. I thought this was not your first rodeo and you messed with deer? Therefore you should know what producing a shoe leather product is You are barking up the wrong tree with Pieds in grass fed. Find one successful producer uses them. Your first thought of yield is a mistake as well. The qualities that made you buy Aubracs for are what will come through for you in the finished product. You need to just compliment it, not fight it. I get the feeling your mind is made up so I guess I am posting this for others. Producing extremely lean beef will be doing a huge dis-service to this industry that already has this problem. Grow an Aubrac cow herd if that suits your fancy and find a line bred Angus or Hereford bull to wrap up the consistency. With those two breeds you will have a good choice in older lines that should have the right growth curve and ability to hold meat quality through the rougher times.

Lastly with a small herd of 20 cows equals, 20 calves, 20 yearlings, and 20 coming 2 year olds. You will have your hands full with grazing management and marketing. Then all the BS that comes along with owning cows such as hay, pink eye, foot rot, and so on. Why in the heck do you want to mess with managing 3 way crosses and extra bulls and straws in such an endeavor? The dirty low down secret to this business is really a quality product, customer service, and proper PRICING. Your scientific breed cocktail don't mean that much to the bottom line. Simplicity is best and honestly that is all one needs to make good grass fed beef.

There ya go more free info...

 

[AllForage]

Today we received hanging weight for a 93% Aubrac bull. He was 1395 live and 922 on the hook; he lived his entire life on grass and blue sky. The yield is pretty normal for us with our pedigreed Aubracs.

Honestly what does this prove to a producer? Do you sell these bulls as quarters? How many a year and what is your re-order rate? We have a local Galloway guy that market all his as bulls. Terribly lean.

 

[Big Bucks]

Big Buck, my comment was half joking as to your term "muscling up" which sounds kinda ridiculous. Now I may not know anything after direct marketing grass fed in the upper midwest for 13 years. Most folks here think I am a nut job. Just spoke with a friend in TX that finishes over 1000 head a year for a co-op and we talked about the management, carcasses, and genetics challenges of both places. Concepts are the same, but do not be fooled by those that have access to forage year round and expect their results, period. Also trying to supplement that quality of feed with preserved forage will bankrupt you. I thought this was not your first rodeo and you messed with deer? Therefore you should know what producing a shoe leather product is You are barking up the wrong tree with Pieds in grass fed. Find one successful producer uses them. Your first thought of yield is a mistake as well. The qualities that made you buy Aubracs for are what will come through for you in the finished product. You need to just compliment it, not fight it. I get the feeling your mind is made up so I guess I am posting this for others. Producing extremely lean beef will be doing a huge dis-service to this industry that already has this problem. Grow an Aubrac cow herd if that suits your fancy and find a line bred Angus or Hereford bull to wrap up the consistency. With those two breeds you will have a good choice in older lines that should have the right growth curve and ability to hold meat quality through the rougher times.

Lastly with a small herd of 20 cows equals, 20 calves, 20 yearlings, and 20 coming 2 year olds. You will have your hands full with grazing management and marketing. Then all the BS that comes along with owning cows such as hay, pink eye, foot rot, and so on. Why in the heck do you want to mess with managing 3 way crosses and extra bulls and straws in such an endeavor? The dirty low down secret to this business is really a quality product, customer service, and proper PRICING. Your scientific breed cocktail don't mean that much to the bottom line. Simplicity is best and honestly that is all one needs to make good grass fed beef.

There ya go more free info...

Thanks for the advice. I actually am NOT sold on the Piedmontese and thus the reason for starting this topic.

What I am sold on is the ability to market grass-fed beef in this area to health conscious consumers. I already have and expect to maintain a waiting list for my beef. There are some breeds that promote their beef as being healthier than others and even compare it to poultry and other meats. I am not sure if I believe all of it but it is certainly a good marketing ploy that would appeal to the consumers that I am targeting.

I am also sold on the hybrid advantages of cross-breeding. What I am trying to wade through is the opinions and information out there on various breeds as I try to come up with the ideal breeds to utilize in my specific operation and "health conscious" marketing plan. I am sold on the Aubrac as part of the cow herd. After that I have interest of varying degrees in several other breeds - Murray Gray, Galloway, Piedmontese, Hereford, and to a lesser degree Angus. I realize that Angus is the breed that probably offers the most to the beef industry and is on the cutting edge of genetic selection but how am I to convince my customers that my "black steers" are better for them health-wise than all the other black cows they see scattered across the country side? I am marketing beef that is "different" than what they can buy at the butcher shop; to sell that point it will be easier if my cattle look different than what they see on every other farm. Right? I mean even the Highland breeders that I talk to have a waiting list for their beef and that breed is also promoted as being healthier. I have some Highlands now that I bought right but am not sold on them and will be working them out of the herd, primarily because of their slower growth although I do like their ability to thrive on brushy and poor pastures and hay. I wouldn't want an animal that is more than 25% Highlander though.

In the end I need to grow and sell cattle at a profit, the more profit the better. Repeat customers drive a business so the end product must please them and be sold at an acceptable price. Good-tasting healthy beef will bring back old customers who will also spread the word to new ones. What other breed(s) do I mix with my Aubracs to get the best product for my customers and the best performance on the farm to maximize my profit? That is THE question I am facing.

 

[AllForage]

Any breed being healthier than the other is nothing more than marketing BS!!!

The key is finding the right breed(bloodline) that will compliment your resources and intended management. I have ideas on that but would need more info. I could list about 15 options for a crossing line.

 

[ohiosteve]

This is a good thread. When it comes to a profitable operation from birth to plate Allforage knows what he's talking about. I sell (100% grass-fed, grass-finished, grain free) take your pick on what you want to call it beef on a very small scale because I enjoy having cattle and have been making pretty good money doing it. While I can see a large operation thinking differently, I concentrate on keeping it simple. Grass finished ground beef is my focus. I sold most of my cattle when prices were crazy and only have a few cows now, but I will buy again when I get a deal. My plan is cheap,rugged longhorn cows and (as Allforage has taught me) a linebred bull. All calves terminal.

 

[HDRider]

This is a good thread. When it comes to a profitable operation from birth to plate Allforage knows what he's talking about. I sell (100% grass-fed, grass-finished, grain free) take your pick on what you want to call it beef on a very small scale because I enjoy having cattle and have been making pretty good money doing it. While I can see a large operation thinking differently, I concentrate on keeping it simple. Grass finished ground beef is my focus. I sold most of my cattle when prices were crazy and only have a few cows now, but I will buy again when I get a deal. My plan is cheap,rugged longhorn cows and (as Allforage has taught me) a linebred bull. All calves terminal.

That cross throws a good steak too.

 

[slick4591]

Any breed being healthier than the other is nothing more than marketing BS!!!

Is that why cardiologists recommend longhorn over commercial?

 

[ohiosteve]

This is a good thread. When it comes to a profitable operation from birth to plate Allforage knows what he's talking about. I sell (100% grass-fed, grass-finished, grain free) take your pick on what you want to call it beef on a very small scale because I enjoy having cattle and have been making pretty good money doing it. While I can see a large operation thinking differently, I concentrate on keeping it simple. Grass finished ground beef is my focus. I sold most of my cattle when prices were crazy and only have a few cows now, but I will buy again when I get a deal. My plan is cheap,rugged longhorn cows and (as Allforage has taught me) a linebred bull. All calves terminal.

That cross throws a good steak too.

I agree the prime cuts are good and I have been keeping them out but in my opinion I'd rather have the mediocre cuts ground. I've been selling ground beef for $5/lb and I'm quite sure I could get more. Absolutely zero complaints on the GB. Some of the roasts and steaks I've cut I will admit were a bit too lean. Healthy...but not real juicy. If I had the time to rotate pastures more often I could improve the marbling but it's just not worth it to me at this point.

 

[Taurus]

Any breed being healthier than the other is nothing more than marketing BS!!!

Is that why cardiologists recommend longhorn over commercial?

So you can get more exercise from chewing on the lean beef all day.

 

[Big Bucks]

Some great stuff here. Thanks for all the input guys.

My plan is to only sell whole or halves and ground beef by the pound.

One thing that intrigues me is the comments regarding linebred bulls. In my other livestock endeavors over the years I have learned the value of line breeding but I also know that line breeding can get you some really good animals as well as some rather poor ones. Why is a linebred bull so important when he is being bred to cows that are not related in any way whatsoever? I mean I could understand a bull being bred to cows that are his half-siblings or something but why a linebred bull on unrelated cows?

 

[AllForage]

Any breed being healthier than the other is nothing more than marketing BS!!!

Is that why cardiologists recommend longhorn over commercial?

WTH does this mean??? yeah sure and doc oz knows all the answers. Remember the heart association were part of the animal fat smear campaign.

 

[AllForage]

Some great stuff here. Thanks for all the input guys.

My plan is to only sell whole or halves and ground beef by the pound.

One thing that intrigues me is the comments regarding linebred bulls. In my other livestock endeavors over the years I have learned the value of line breeding but I also know that line breeding can get you some really good animals as well as some rather poor ones. Why is a linebred bull so important when he is being bred to cows that are not related in any way whatsoever? I mean I could understand a bull being bred to cows that are his half-siblings or something but why a linebred bull on unrelated cows?

Big buck don't mean to nit pick here but you need to sell by the quarter. You are going to get a lot of first timers and sticking them with 150-300 pounds if they don't like it or cook wrong that is not good. You will also be alienating a lot of empty nesters who do not need that much. Sure it sounds great to deal with less folks, but it is not reality. I have had few families start at a quarter then go up to a 1/2 and a lamb or burger, then back to quarter when kids have gone to college. I would hate to lose my biggest cheerleaders.

A highly linebred bull has prepotency, that enables him to stamp his calves overwhelmingly. Hence giving you the consistency you need to manage as a group and produce a uniform product. Can be considered a form of risk management. Make a trip up here in the summer and I can show you.

 

[ohiosteve]

Some great stuff here. Thanks for all the input guys.

My plan is to only sell whole or halves and ground beef by the pound.

One thing that intrigues me is the comments regarding linebred bulls. In my other livestock endeavors over the years I have learned the value of line breeding but I also know that line breeding can get you some really good animals as well as some rather poor ones. Why is a linebred bull so important when he is being bred to cows that are not related in any way whatsoever? I mean I could understand a bull being bred to cows that are his half-siblings or something but why a linebred bull on unrelated cows?

I will probably insert my foot into my mouth here but here is my take on it. The reason for using a linebred bull is because since he comes from a closely related family of cattle his genetics will be very streamlined, and assuming he has been bred correctly for his strong points (this is why it is crucial you buy from a good repectable breeder who knows what he is doing. Or She.), he will have a much smaller choice of DNA thrown into the mix thus maximizing the chance that his traits will be passed to his offspring(progeny). Therefore the resulting calves will have more of his traits than the dam. In my mind this is the reason a linebred bull is very important to me using skinny butt longhorn cows. I can have rugged low maintenence cows that throw calves with fat butts that can bring me more money. There's a good chance my logic is flawed but that's my take on it.