Aubrac X Piedmontese opinions?

[Big Bucks]

I am developing a cow herd to ultimately raise grass-fed beef that I will sell directly to the consumer. I already have an Aubrac bull and a couple of Aubrac cows and calves (as well as a few others of other breeds that may or may not play a part in the cow herd I am building). I am focused on developing a smaller framed cow, ideally one that will mature at around 1000 pounds although I know this might be difficult to acheive. I have bought the smallest framed Aubracs I could find and also purchased a Lowline Angus bull that I will use on my heifers starting next summer. In the end, my cow herd will be animals with varying percentage of Aubrac with the lowest being 25% Aubrac and some being over 90%. I like the Aubrac for their ability to do well on all forage diets and the production and longevity of the cows. The cows seem to stay in great shape on some rather poor hay and pastures and are known to breed regularly year after year.

My question is this; once I have my Aubrac/percentage Aubrac cow herd developed, what do you think of using a Piedmontese bull on these cows for a terminal cross? My interest in the Piedmontese is for these reasons -

1) They will add yield to the carcass with their extreme muscling. Again, I am marketing straight to the consumer and will mostly be selling by hanging weight. The better the dressed percentage of my cattle, the more money I will make off of them.

2) The Piedmontese have the "tenderness gene" which should improve the quality of the beef produced. As with any business, repeat customers and word of mouth advertising will have customers lined up to buy all the cattle I have to sell as long as the product and service is good.

I would be interested to hear if anyone has ever tried this cross (Aubrac x Piedmontese) as well as opinions from others on this cross.

I would also like to hear opinions on a smaller cow giving birth to Piedmontese calves.

Any advice from others raising grass-fed beef is also welcome. Thank you

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Big Bucks-

Welcome to the CattleToday Beef Cattle Forum!

If you have been monitoring these pages in the past you know how valuable the information contained herein can be. Your questions concerning the cominings of certain BREEDS are sound and legitimate, and the relative traits and characteristics of each BREED must be taken into consideration - BUT - the specific traits and characteristics of the individua breeding animals are of high importance. Balancing these various traits will help result in seedstock that you are seeking, and focusing those characteristics in future matings will prove the efficacy of Balancing your genetics. Following that thinking, I highly recommend that you use one of the DNA evaluation methods to enhance the value of EPD's. It will save you years of trial and error and guessing!

Good luck to you in your development of your seedstock herd. In my opinion, your combining Aubrac and Piedmontese genetics is a fine crossbreeding combination - IF you balance their inherent genetic qualities and EPD's to their future benefits. It takes time and concentrated thinking to 'meld' together their qualitative and quantitative accuracies into a genetically manageable beef cattle seedstock herd.

Others have accomplished this undertaking and deed - and you can too!

DOC HARRIS

 

[slick4591]

You don't say where you are located and I think that will play a part on how well that cross sells in a market setting. You will get better prices in the north rather than the south. I can't speak for Aubrac (I don't know the breed), but most people in my area have no idea what Pieds are. Because of that I think folks shy away from them because they don't understand the breed.

However, there are beef folks that will pay a premium (.15 -.20 lb) more for 1-copy animals. You can also promote them in your area as lean beef on the hoof, which will bring in a few extra bucks.

With that said, I raise a few reg full blood Pieds and that calf market is outstanding for seed stock animals.

I will say that you must be careful about putting Pieds bulls on smaller framed heifers/cows because of the BW's they tend to throw.

 

[WalnutCrest]

Interesting question. I was just thinking about this cross myself just yesterday.

I'll look forward to following this thread to see if anyone has any first-hand experience with this sort of a cross (Aubrac x. Piedmontese).

 

[AllForage]

I'm not going tick anyone off on the breed deal, but you have two challenges already in your post. First there is a point of too small for grass fed. You need to shoot for 550-650 hanging weights to even think about being profitable. Even then you better price yourself right. Cows are not static in weight and 1000 at late gestation is too small. Number 2, you better not put a grossly lean product out there or you will have customer problems. I agree tenderness is king, but all the British breeds are tender enough. You need to have animals that will marble in a low energy scenario in 24 months or less to make it worth while.

Btw, really watch your pricing. With the present market at the barns it is easy to leave money on the table.

Ryan

 

[HDRider]

I do hope you keep us posted on your efforts.

Listen to Doc.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Marbling does not have much to do with tenderness. Allforage is right about cow size.

 

[AllForage]

I do hope you keep us posted on your efforts.

Listen to Doc.

Could you please tell us about your grass fed production experience and include marketing. Also qualify Docs comment as to how they pertain to actual production and the economics of such a venture. I think the OP could really benefit from some more input from producers of grass fed beef.

 

[Taurus]

I do hope you keep us posted on your efforts.

Listen to Doc.

Could you please tell us about your grass fed production experience and include marketing. Also qualify Docs comment as to how they pertain to actual production and the economics of such a venture. I think the OP could really benefit from some more input from producers of grass fed beef.

Me too I want to heard about your grass fed operation, HDRider.

 

[HDRider]

I do hope you keep us posted on your efforts.

Listen to Doc.

Could you please tell us about your grass fed production experience and include marketing. Also qualify Docs comment as to how they pertain to actual production and the economics of such a venture. I think the OP could really benefit from some more input from producers of grass fed beef.

Me too I want to heard about your grass fed operation, HDRider.

The OP was new. Doc has shown many times over that he is someone to listen to. I thought he might want to know that. What is your problem? Does that not suit you two?

 

[Backbone Ranch]

To get carcass weights averaging over 650 lbs, our steers finish at around 1,200 lbs. We make money with carcasses this size after they are direct marketed, but if the steer is much smaller you will lose a significant amount of profit. Our cow herd ranges from a frame score 3-5 and our bulls are between a frame score 3-4, so our steers are somewhere in that realm. We chose a breed that was extremely tender, Murray Greys. They have calving ease, and every steak that we have had from our grass-finished steers have graded at least Choice. However, to grade well on grass, the steers MUST gain weight EVERY day of their life. If it is 105 or -5 degrees, they need to gain if you want tender beef.

If you want beef cows that weigh 1,000 lbs, they will probably be frame score 2 or smaller. Your first few years marketing beef may be difficult, so you may want to consider selling breeding stock as well as grass-fed beef. I do not want to be rude, but have you weighed your cows? I have been surprised sometimes by how much one of our smaller cows will weigh. We just had one 4 year old cow wean off two calves. The cow is 48 inches at the hip, a frame score 3, and she weighed 1,440 lbs.

I agree with Doc that the specific traits of the individual are just as, if not more, important than the traits of the breed. There are easy keeping, deep-bodied, efficient, and tender individuals in most breeds. However, there are certain breeds that have a higher prevalence of these traits than others.

 

[Big Bucks]

I just threw out the "1000 pound" figure for the cows. A frame 3 or 4 would be fine, I just don't want any 1500 pounders. I DO want them deep and THICK. I actually have been looking for a couple of Murray Grey cows/heifers to breed to my Aubrac bull but cant seem to find any in Central Illinois or even surrounding states. There are actually a few breeds that I would like to cross with Aubrac and then use the resulting F1 cows to breed to a Piedmontese bull for terminal cross. That would make the terminal calves 50% Piedmontese, 25% Aubrac and 25% other breeds. Anyone have any input on what breed(s) they would use as the "other 25%"?

I don't think I will have any problem marketing my beef. I will have a small herd of no more than 20 cows and I already have a waiting list.

Thanks for all the responses. I have been lurking on here for quite a while and finally decided to join in.

 

[AllForage]

By bucks, how many beeves have you finished on grass? How many grass fed producers have visited?

 

[Big Bucks]

AllForage - this is my first experience with grass finishing. I am 51 years old and have owned, worked with and been around livestock (including beef cattle) my entire life so I have a good understanding of things like genetics and nutrition. I even raised captive whitetail deer for nearly 20 years, artificially breeding them for the last 11 to some of the biggest bucks on the planet. I have also AIed some of my beef cows in the past so I am not totally "green" regarding beef cattle production. Again, this is my first try at grass-finishing and I have a lot to learn but I did a lot of research before jumping in. The problem is that 10 different "experts" will have 10 different opinions. That is why I am here though; to hear those opinions and sort through them to find what works in my situation. I am sold on Aubracs as being the base breed of my cow herd but beyond that I am still feeling my way along. I would like to cross the Aubrac with a few other breeds to see what works best to build an efficient cow for a grass-fed operation. That is my current focus; I feel I need to build the ideal cow herd for a grass-fed operation first before moving to the next step of coming up with the best terminal cross for that cow herd.

Thank you for all your input. What part of Wisconsin are you from? I am from Illinois and get to your state at least once a year, maybe I could visit your operation?

 

[Rahe Family Belties]

I would be hesitant to breed a 1000 pound cow to a larger, more terminal breed. (Especially a deep bodied, thick cow as you seek)
That would be a very small framed cow to meet those requirements. Your ideal cow reminds me of a Square Meter.
I would expect calving issues bred to a terminal bull.

You might gain more market acceptance for grass cattle with another cross. They are so rare(especially in central IL) you would have a hard time selling beef.

A former student (near Mechanicsburg) raised Pieds and did very well selling his half blood and higher % corn-fed calves on the rail to a packer in Wisconsin. At that time there was an association program promoting Pied beef.

Best wishes with your venture-

I am also in central IL and will gladly show you our cattle and share with you what we do to market our beef.

 

[HDRider]

These guys raise and source Piedmontese. They also process and sell Piedmontese beef.

http://www.yoderfarmsbeef.com/about.htm

I do not think it is grass finished beef.

 

[AllForage]

Big buck,

I will pm you my address and yes you would be welcome to visit. I will include my phone # if you would want to chat about all this.

I think you are heading for trouble with pied. The breed advertises leaness and that is not something you need in a low energy system. I think the double muscling compounds this issue. The aubrac might pigeonhole you a bit as well from the very limited gene pool. With that said I have come to believe with grass fed you need genetic consistency. I think that is best used by staying straightbred or killing your F1's. Without the ability to raise energy levels with a feed sack, the cattle need to perform very consistent while enduring the seasons ie, varying dry matter levels, protein levels, sugar levels, wet, drought, long winters, hot summers, humidity, etc. Having a consistent product is extremely important for a marketing point of view. Also you do not need very fat meat, but extremely lean will cause havoc with customers. You need enough fat to offset cooking mistakes and that needs to be a high priority with customer education. I also favor moderste growth animals in our upper Midwest area since we have long winter feed periods. I feel that type of animal can handle the variations in feed quality better and still produce a very good product. Also spreading the growth out a bit evenly helps with wintering costs and stocking rates.

I have more but you can get a hold of me if you are interested.

Ryan

 

[WalnutCrest]

Today we received hanging weight for a 93% Aubrac bull. He was 1395 live and 922 on the hook; he lived his entire life on grass and blue sky. The yield is pretty normal for us with our pedigreed Aubracs.

 

[Big Bucks]

Darren, if you was going to slaughter him why did you leave him a bull? I recently talked to a Piedmontese guy that said he does not castrate his bulls because it makes them "muscle up better" for slaughter.

 

[AllForage]

Darren, if you was going to slaughter him why did you leave him a bull? I recently talked to a Piedmontese guy that said he does not castrate his bulls because it makes them "muscle up better" for slaughter.

How does one muscle up without testosterone?