Attended a Livestock Show-Questions

[spinandslide]

Posted this on the showboard, but figured Id put it up hear too, to mabey get some other;s attentions that dont visit the showboard often.

it was a county 4-h livestock show. Dairy and Beef classes. I learned alot, thanks to the judges after placing the classes, they would go down the line and say what they liked/thought could be improved upon in each animal. I feel more comfortable now in mabey getting involved in this..

Now my questions...

The beef heifer classes, all the exhibitors classed show sticks(with the little hook on the end), while dairy, none of the children used a stick...is that a difference between dairy and beef in that aspect?

Also, the beef judge made mention, that is was hard to judge the british and american breed together..as it was 5 breed make a class.no breed has enough. she was referencing a "growthy" looking Brangus or Beefmaster heifer compared to 2 shorthorns when she made this statement. Is this a pretty common trend, when you have to show all breeds together? the british breeds boding better then the american, due to the way they mature?

Thanks for the information
Sarah

 

[backhoeboogie]

Sarah it can have a lot to do with trends, the popular breed, or sometimes the judges just saying what justifies their picks. Many are biased to a particular breed.

We took the grandchildren to the Fort Worth Stock Show last year. I sat in the colesium watching the Herefords and picked the Grand Champion and Reserve. When they were announced I couldn't believe my picks were right. There is a first time for everything

 

[bigbull338]

you asked a very good q with a simple answer.kids showing beef heifers or steers are allowed to use a show stick to get the calf to set its fet properly.were as with dairy cattle you have to get them to setup without a show stick.i got real good at setting them up w/o sticks.all i had todo was gently step on 1 of their front toes an they would setup their feet.

 

[spinandslide]

Sarah it can have a lot to do with trends, the popular breed, or sometimes the judges just saying what justifies their picks. Many are biased to a particular breed.

We took the grandchildren to the Fort Worth Stock Show last year. I sat in the colesium watching the Herefords and picked the Grand Champion and Reserve. When they were announced I couldn't believe my picks were right. There is a first time for everything

thank you BHB..I figured as with any judged activity, human preference would come into play..the brangus or beefmaster heifer was growthier then the shorthorns,but I thought she was quite nice, but then IM biased towards some ear, so that might explain that..same exhibitor had another animal with some ear on it in the young heifers class and again, didnt do well..and again, more growthy looking. I knew they wouldnt fare well next to the "not as growthy" heifers, but Id never heard the british and american breeds compared the way the judge was speaking of. In trying to determine what type of heifer I should look into for my son, Im inclined to stay with a "tried and true" type of heifer..same way, there are Arabian horses who make cutters, but quarter horses are tried and true. I know many folks will say dont go by type or breed, go by what you want, but I want this to be a good experience for my son..hes gonna have to learn that life's not fair in the aspect of a judge's bias, but Id like to not make him a guiena pig..hope I made sense with my rabble.

I was quite pleased, as I picked out all the dairy showmanship champions and a good many of the beef heifers as well..very surprising on my part.

 

[spinandslide]

you asked a very good q with a simple answer.kids showing beef heifers or steers are allowed to use a show stick to get the calf to set its fet properly.were as with dairy cattle you have to get them to setup without a show stick.i got real good at setting them up w/o sticks.all i had todo was gently step on 1 of their front toes an they would setup their feet.

thanks BB- I figured it was a pretty easy answer..I saw the diary kids "hand setting" by using their feet and pulling hips..was really neat..Im not familar with Dairy, just didnt know if it was a "breed regulation" or something

 

[backhoeboogie]

The really big shows break into breeds better. It is easier to compare apples to apples when they do that.

This disappointment of the Fort Worth Stock Show last year was no MG's. None. We had hope to see some and talk to some breeders in person.

I have been considering a MG for freezer beef customers using the bull as terminal only, not wanting to do the AI.

Some of the MG breeders on this board have been kind with information.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I think MG are a good breed - they just don't have the numbers behind them (I mean quantity not quality).

Spin&Slide - when you say "growthy" are you referring to their HEIGHT? "Leggy" cattle sometimes have height & length but not the depth & volume & muscling that is needed.
The cattle industry (show/commercial/purebreds) have moderated their "height", wanting moderate framed, easy keeping type cattle.

 

[spinandslide]

The really big shows break into breeds better. It is easier to compare apples to apples when they do that.

This disappointment of the Fort Worth Stock Show last year was no MG's. None. We had hope to see some and talk to some breeders in person.

I have been considering a MG for freezer beef customers using the bull as terminal only, not wanting to do the AI.

Some of the MG breeders on this board have been kind with information.

yeah, I imagine breaking it into breeds would be better..Iknow how hard it is to judge an "open" halter horse class when each breed has its ideals and desirable traits.

Ive never looked into MG's...Although I love looking at Keren's! ;-)

 

[spinandslide]

I think MG are a good breed - they just don't have the numbers behind them (I mean quantity not quality).

Spin&Slide - when you say "growthy" are you referring to their HEIGHT? "Leggy" cattle sometimes have height & length but not the depth & volume & muscling that is needed.
The cattle industry (show/commercial/purebreds) have moderated their "height", wanting moderate framed, easy keeping type cattle.

Jeanne, yes, leggier, taller...so obviously didnt have the muscle and weight of the shorter baldies and shorthorns. Just wondering if this a common occurence between the American and British/European breeds, in the younger heifer classes...having the american's being leggier then the others..or is it more a bloodline type thing, luck of the draw if they are growing that particular time of year,ect.

So, they are wanting shorter, moderate framed cattle?

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Yes. If it "appears" leggy, it is probably too gutless & lacking in volume. You want the animal to look like a deep rectangle, tapered at the front, with good legs under them.
If you're looking - start at the FEET. They have to have good feet & legs, than you need to worry about the depth, thickness, cleaness of front end, etc. But first & foremost, they've got to be able to walk GOOD. Structure should be #1.
Cattle are measured at the hips & a frame score is calculated using a chart - hip height vs age.
Cattle can range from a 4.5 to a 7 frame and still be in the right "size". There actual HEIGHT isn't as important as the overall balance.
You can see some examples on my web site if you care to look.
http://www.SimmeValley.com

 

[spinandslide]

Yes. If it "appears" leggy, it is probably too gutless & lacking in volume. You want the animal to look like a deep rectangle, tapered at the front, with good legs under them.
If you're looking - start at the FEET. They have to have good feet & legs, than you need to worry about the depth, thickness, cleaness of front end, etc. But first & foremost, they've got to be able to walk GOOD. Structure should be #1.
Cattle are measured at the hips & a frame score is calculated using a chart - hip height vs age.
Cattle can range from a 4.5 to a 7 frame and still be in the right "size". There actual HEIGHT isn't as important as the overall balance.
You can see some examples on my web site if you care to look.
http://www.SimmeValley.com

OK, I think this is all making sense now..judge really had these heifers walk out and her comments on all the first placer winners were good feet(straight forward) and good legs..and a good walk.

So even if a heifer is tall(or short) for that matter then the "average" in her age..if shes structualy built correct and has a correct frame score, then we are doing something right?

I did check your website..your Macho is stunning! Like some of your heifers as well..Rita I think her name was? All nice animals..gave me a good idea of what I need to be looking for in a show heifer...Im not sure how serious this might become for my son, but Id like to get him a quality animal..as it helps ME when hes done showing when I can utilize her as a cow.

Sarah

 

[backhoeboogie]

I did check your website..your Macho is stunning! Like some of your heifers as well..Rita I think her name was? All nice animals..gave me a good idea of what I need to be looking for in a show heifer...Im not sure how serious this might become for my son, but Id like to get him a quality animal..as it helps ME when hes done showing when I can utilize her as a cow.

Sarah

If your son wants to show one, it would be a great experience for him. Also a lot of learning and responsibility.

 

[grannysoo]

Seems that when you have a livestock show with judges, some judges have preferences based upon "facts" that they have learned. Some seem to also have preferences based upon hide colors.

A good judge will be color blind and judge based upon the facts, not on the fiction.

It's just hard to find judges that judge in this manner.......

 

[spinandslide]

Thank you BHB and Grannysoo

My son feeds, waters and hays his calf each night..not sure she'll make him a show heifer, but Im glad to see him taking responsibility. Hes taken alot more interest in this and the dog club then horse shows...

Can anyone tell me...was looking at show sticks...Valley Vet had a retractable one that could be folded up to 29" for storage and expanded out to 34, 48 and 54..I think? are these any good? or should I stick with a tradtional one? What about halters..Ive seen rolled and flat..are these for specfific breed types?

Thanks for any information.
Sarah

 

[grannysoo]

not sure she'll make him a show heifer
Sarah

If "she" makes him a show "heifer", that would be good.

If she makes "him" a show "heifer", I want to see the pics..... :lol2:

30 or so years ago when I showed cows, we used rope halters and traditional show sticks. I don't have a clue as to what they're doing now. I need to go to another cow show one day.

 

[spinandslide]

not sure she'll make him a show heifer
Sarah

If "she" makes him a show "heifer", that would be good.

If she makes "him" a show "heifer", I want to see the pics..... :lol2:

30 or so years ago when I showed cows, we used rope halters and traditional show sticks. I don't have a clue as to what they're doing now. I need to go to another cow show one day.

LOL, that would be something huh! we'd have to put it on a sticky thread at the top of the BB..feel like a dumbass.

I did not get a real close look at the show sticks, but they all "looked" normal..just thought mabey getting a retractable one would help as he grew up and showed and needed a longer stick..halters..all I saw were flat..no rolled, but they had them in the catalog..

 

[dcarp]

My daughter was in FFA. She had to use a hand tied rope halter and a stick for the FFA shows. All the other shows she entered she used a "commercial halter"(paid for) and a stick.

Most of the shows were good and she learned a lot. Her heifer was on loan from a ranch to her and the high school she attended. That year Daisy(the heifer) gave birth to a heifer calf(Noel) on New Year's evening. Quite a start for the New Year.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Do NOT buy any retractable or folding stick. Trust me, they "retract" or "fold" when you don't want them to - like in the ring poking at a foot! And when you buy one, get the longest he can handle confortably. When you are at the halter (which you want to buy a ROLLED halter - not flat - flat went out 20 years ago!) holding their head UP with one hand, it can be very difficult to reach their hind leg with the other hand unless you have a long enough stick.
After you pay good money for the halter, you need to CUT the lead off so that it is just long enough to hold their head up in the air & the rest hangs down BUT DOES NOT TOUCH THE GROUND. Never, ever wrap the excess lead strap in your hand, or wad it up, or roll it up neatly with a tie. It will be way too long for your son to handle without bunching up or dragging on the ground. So, get out your pocket knife & CUT IT OFF!!! Parents really HATE to do that!
When you get the showstick home, get out the grinder & sharpen the ends just a little - not so much you are going to cut the animal, just more than the dull rounded tip that they come with. You want the animal to FEEL it when you are quietly scratching their belly or touching their foot to move it.

 

[spinandslide]

Do NOT buy any retractable or folding stick. Trust me, they "retract" or "fold" when you don't want them to - like in the ring poking at a foot! And when you buy one, get the longest he can handle confortably. When you are at the halter (which you want to buy a ROLLED halter - not flat - flat went out 20 years ago!) holding their head UP with one hand, it can be very difficult to reach their hind leg with the other hand unless you have a long enough stick.
After you pay good money for the halter, you need to CUT the lead off so that it is just long enough to hold their head up in the air & the rest hangs down BUT DOES NOT TOUCH THE GROUND. Never, ever wrap the excess lead strap in your hand, or wad it up, or roll it up neatly with a tie. It will be way too long for your son to handle without bunching up or dragging on the ground. So, get out your pocket knife & CUT IT OFF!!! Parents really HATE to do that!
When you get the showstick home, get out the grinder & sharpen the ends just a little - not so much you are going to cut the animal, just more than the dull rounded tip that they come with. You want the animal to FEEL it when you are quietly scratching their belly or touching their foot to move it.

Thank you Jeanne! Im going to stay away from the retractables definantly.

The local store had a 54" the other say which I think was to long for him..we may look at the 30 something ones.

OK, I dont mind cutting it..would rather be safe and look the part then not! He knows full well not to wrap leads around his hands after handling the horses and getting it drilled into his head.

When you scratch their bellies, its kind of a sign to "stand and relax" correct?

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Yes the show stick has dual purpose - keep calf calm & set feet - Oh and also you can use it to place in front on eyes on the walk if calf gets going to fast. With practice, as you walk the calf around, when you are ready to stop, you pull up on the lead, and the heifer will learn to "set" her feet - at least the front feet. first thing you do is switch hands on the lead & showstick. Lead will now be in your left hand, showstick in right. Scratch the bellie, BEFORE you start poking at their feet. Than, make sure front feet are set, than the back. If either front or back are "really" off - make her take a step forward. Be sure to set a foot - scratch bellie - set a foot - scartch bellie. Don't just keep poking at a foot until it's right.
Go to an open show & watch the "pros". You'll get the idea.