Arthrogryposis Multiplex (AM) ??-?

[Brandonm22]

I think that our registered Angus cows will do fine as commercial cattle if it comes to that. We'd send the calves through a retained ownership program. I believe we'd make money on them. The clean up bull we bought has good ultrasound data and gained well over 4 lbs a day on feed test. We wouldn't make as much as we have selling registered bulls in the past, but it would be a heck of a lot easier.

Maybe; but I wouldn't be registering steers that I sent to the feedlot.

 

[HerefordSire]

Unless the industry as a whole picks up, I don't like the position that an individual Angus breeders finds himself to be in right now.

Is this feeling you have related partially to AM?

 

[RD-Sam]

Wow, are we still beating that dead horse? There are tests, get over it. You can manage it, get over it. It's not the end of the world, get over it. It won't put Herefords back at the top of the heap, get over it. It has been beat to death, hydro is not even getting as much attention and the tests haven't come available, worry about that one. Or worry about Fawn Calf, they aren't done with tests for that one yet. When you have a defective calf hit the ground, then worry, and more important, do somethng about it. :stop:

 

[Brandonm22]

Unless the industry as a whole picks up, I don't like the position that an individual Angus breeders finds himself to be in right now.

Is this feeling you have related partially to AM?

Not really. Angus's biggest challenge longterm is it's own success. We know from decades of research that a crossbred cow lives longer, weans a heavier calf, and is a little more fertile than a straightbred cow and the crossbred calf usually gains a little better, is healthier, and is more efficient in the feedlot. IF registered Angus is 51% or more of the seedstock business over time a lot of producers are going to have to choose to walk away from those crossbreeding benefits. Add to that genotypically Angus is a big part of Red Angus, Brangus, Limflex, Balancer, Maintainer, Simangus, and most composites. That growing percentage of Angus DNA in the commercial cow herd puts Angus at a heterosis disadvantage compared to other purebreds. The more the total cowherd declines, for Angus to continue to grow as a breed the higher the Angus percentage of the cow herd and thus the greater potential production benefit from selecting another breed to settle those cows.

 

[HerefordSire]

Unless the industry as a whole picks up, I don't like the position that an individual Angus breeders finds himself to be in right now.

Is this feeling you have related partially to AM?

Not really. Angus's biggest challenge longterm is it's own success. We know from decades of research that a crossbred cow lives longer, weans a heavier calf, and is a little more fertile than a straightbred cow and the crossbred calf usually gains a little better, is healthier, and is more efficient in the feedlot. IF registered Angus is 51% or more of the seedstock business over time a lot of producers are going to have to choose to walk away from those crossbreeding benefits. Add to that genotypically Angus is a big part of Red Angus, Brangus, Limflex, Balancer, Maintainer, Simangus, and most composites. That growing percentage of Angus DNA in the commercial cow herd puts Angus at a heterosis disadvantage compared to other purebreds. The more the total cowherd declines, for Angus to continue to grow as a breed the higher the Angus percentage of the cow herd and thus the greater potential production benefit from selecting another breed to settle those cows.

Good Point! I never thought of the Angus dominance getting that high.

 

[KaitlinLego]

I didn't look to see if this was an active board, and I'm only a kid, so dont get mad if i sound un educated or naive.
I am a new Angus breeder, i started through FFA and i have 3 heifers. My best heifer might be a AM carrier. I don't
understand why you can't register AM carries in the Angus Association, unlike the Shorthorn Association where you can
with a very similar disease. No one WANTS a AM affected calf, so if you had a AMC cow bred with a AMF bull, you will
never get an affected calf. You'd simply have to test it to see if the calf was a carrier, and if it is take responsibility
to not breed that calf to a AMC bull. Plus AMC bulls can not have certificates anymore, so if your in the club calf buissness
you wouldnt breed to an AMC bull anyways.

So my question is, why is the ANgus Association not letting people register AMC cows.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Because it is propagating the problem. If you keep breeding AMC cows, you keep the problem around. 50% of your AMC's cow will have AMC calves. You register an AMC heifer, & breed her - 50% of her calves will be AMCs. This way the AM will be around forever.
I think the way the Shorthorn Assn. has handled their problem is terrible. All they did was SHUT THEIR EYES to the problem.
AAA is getting a lot of pressure to "loosen" their rulings - I hope they don't. It's a tough bullet to swallow right now, but it will be best for the breed (IMO).
I realize there are some powerful cows out there that are testing possitive. The AAA is not pulling registration papers. You can still breed them, but you can only register the clean calves. Seems reasonable to me.
I just read an Angus Topic and I did not see one ad that identified any animal they were advertising as being AMF.

 

[Frankie]

I didn't look to see if this was an active board, and I'm only a kid, so dont get mad if i sound un educated or naive.
I am a new Angus breeder, i started through FFA and i have 3 heifers. My best heifer might be a AM carrier. I don't
understand why you can't register AM carries in the Angus Association, unlike the Shorthorn Association where you can
with a very similar disease. No one WANTS a AM affected calf, so if you had a AMC cow bred with a AMF bull, you will
never get an affected calf. You'd simply have to test it to see if the calf was a carrier, and if it is take responsibility
to not breed that calf to a AMC bull. Plus AMC bulls can not have certificates anymore, so if your in the club calf buissness
you wouldnt breed to an AMC bull anyways.

So my question is, why is the ANgus Association not letting people register AMC cows.

As Jeanne said, by breeding and registering AM carriers, you just continue the problem. You may never get an affected calf, but you will continue to produce carriers. AAA has taken the stand that we need to get AM out of the Angus breed as quickly as possible.

Welcome to the boards, BTW.

 

[bigag03]

Because it is propagating the problem

It only propagates the problem if you are not intelligent enough to breed around it. Selection based solely on genetic tests for AM or any other disease is single trait selection. Single trait selection will do more harm to your herd and ultimately the breed than these diseases ever could have.

Our job as breeders is to use all available tools to make slection decisions that will improve our herd. Eliminating top donor prospects because they are carriers of one bad allele is not the way to improve your herd. Don't get me wrong, it is definitely a factor to be considered, but it should NOT be an automatic culling basis.

 

[KaitlinLego]

Eliminating top donor prospects because they are carriers of one bad allele is not the way to improve your herd.

Okay so its NOT a bad decision to keep her? She's my best heifer of the three i have. I do not know if she
is a carrier yet, I'm a new Angus member so i just read all of this on the AAA website a couple days ago. It's a lot to
learn and take in. Anyways, I'm lucky enough to have bred her with a Satree bull who is AM free, so if her calf is a carrier, i guess I'm
taking one of my other heifers to majors this year. :/

And, thanks Frankie

 

[Frankie]

Because it is propagating the problem

It only propagates the problem if you are not intelligent enough to breed around it. Selection based solely on genetic tests for AM or any other disease is single trait selection. Single trait selection will do more harm to your herd and ultimately the breed than these diseases ever could have.

Our job as breeders is to use all available tools to make slection decisions that will improve our herd. Eliminating top donor prospects because they are carriers of one bad allele is not the way to improve your herd. Don't get me wrong, it is definitely a factor to be considered, but it should NOT be an automatic culling basis.

It's not "automatic culling." You can continue to register calves out of an AMCarrier.....as long as they've been tested AMFree.

I'd have to disagree with a couple of things. First, a major consideration is not just improving MY herd, but also the animals that I sell to other people to improve their herds. Second, not everyone is "intelligent" or willing to "breed around it." And lastly, it's not "single trait selection." All Angus are black; is that "single trait selection"? No, it's following the rules and guidelines set by the AAA.

 

[Frankie]

Eliminating top donor prospects because they are carriers of one bad allele is not the way to improve your herd.

Okay so its NOT a bad decision to keep her? She's my best heifer of the three i have. I do not know if she
is a carrier yet, I'm a new Angus member so i just read all of this on the AAA website a couple days ago. It's a lot to
learn and take in. Anyways, I'm lucky enough to have bred her with a Satree bull who is AM free, so if her calf is a carrier, i guess I'm
taking one of my other heifers to majors this year. :/

And, thanks Frankie

There is serious disagreement between Angus breeders about the best way to handle these genetic defects. bigag03 and I don't see eye to eye, but that's ok. As her owner, it's your decision to breed her or not. Get her tested. We had bought a bred heifer last spring that turned out to be a potential carrier. But, thankfully, she tested AMFree. You're fretting and worrying over nothing until you know for sure one way or another. Good luck....

 

[KaitlinLego]

Thanks, I hope she isnt, so this wont even be a concern for my very small growing herd.

 

[Brandonm22]

Eliminating top donor prospects because they are carriers of one bad allele is not the way to improve your herd. Don't get me wrong, it is definitely a factor to be considered, but it should NOT be an automatic culling basis.

There are over a million registered Angus cows. Only 11-20% of those cows are carriers (AM, NH, or both). If we chopped off the head of every AMCarrier cow tomorrow, there are plenty of AMFree heifers available to replace them with. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for anybody to be flushing an AMCarrier cow.

 

[KMacGinley]

I agree with Brandomm, what I fear will happen is that the resulting calves from carrier cows that test as carriers will be sold as bred heifers to commercial herds and the bulls will be sold without papers to commercial guys.

I had a new cattleman come to me a couple of weeks ago looking for cow-calf pairs, he had gone to a dispersal sale and bought two, only to find out later that both were potential carriers of the trait. Nothing was said at the sale about any of the genetic conditions. Nothing was printed in the catalog. He still hasn't gotten his papers and the guy is not returning his phone calls.

If deformed calves start showing up in the commercial business, the coffee shop news service will spread the news and Any angus bull may become a hard sell in the years to come.

I think the hard, but smart thing to do is to Kill all of the carriers. Or use them as recips or commercial cows in your own herd and consider any of their calves terminal.

 

[dun]

I think the hard, but smart thing to do is to Kill all of the carriers. Or use them as recips or commercial cows in your own herd and consider any of their calves terminal.

It all boils down to integrity. If all calves are tested from potential AMC cows and the positives are eaten (or used as recips) all would be well and good. But human nature being what it is, there will be a few shmucks that won;t do it.
I watched a sale a month or so ago that had full sisters. One was AMC the other AMF. The AMF cow sold for 2500 the AMC for 600. As long as there are dollars like that difference you know the people without integrity will end up sticking it to someone down the line.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Dun's correct - integrity and $$$$
OK, you test your calves, get the results. How many have the ability to feed out their own AMC calves? Many will SELL the carriers as feeders (heifers & steers/bulls). Reputable thing to do - right?
But, how many calves sold as "feeders" wind up as replacement heifers or breeding bulls? and the ball keeps rolling -----

 

[Brandonm22]

Dun's correct - integrity and $$$$
OK, you test your calves, get the results. How many have the ability to feed out their own AMC calves? Many will SELL the carriers as feeders (heifers & steers/bulls). Reputable thing to do - right?
But, how many calves sold as "feeders" wind up as replacement heifers or breeding bulls? and the ball keeps rolling -----

While SOME folks DO buy all their replacements at the weekly sale, I think the VAST majority of feeder calves wind up in the freezers and feedlots. At our weekly sale, while it might be packed at the beginning for the goats, baby calves, pairs, mature bulls, preg checked cows (usually in that order) two hours later it is usually down to the same six order buyers who come every week and a handful of sellers waiting for their check while we go through all the by the pound kill cows. Yearling heifers, yearling steers, 2 to 4 weight feeders, 4 to 5 weight feeders, and 5 to 7 weight feeders, and anything else that showed up late will go back and forth until the pens are empty. Farmer Bubba could show up at six pm and buy 20 feeder calves to grow out as replacements (or whatever he is going to do with them) but that is relatively rare. As Caustic would likely say, you make more money buying a pair and hoping she is short bred than you can growing out feeder heifers. At this point the informed cattleman is probably just assuming that a bunch of "black" heifers included AMCarriers and NHCarriers and is careful to buy a tested free bull from a known source to breed them too.......or at least one that is not black. And even if some dummy buys a 6 year old AMCarrier bull at 56 cents a pound and a load of black heifers that are AMCarriers, you still have it more or less contained because MOST of us don't buy our breeding bulls from guys who buy their seedstock at the weekly sale. Right now I think the AAA is more worried about people getting screwed by people with painted signs in front of their farm that say "Registered Angus Bulls and females for sale". THAT just can not happen.

 

[Putangitangi]

I share the fears of dead calves turning up in commercial herds. There have been a number of sales of bulls in the last few years which have been sired by now-tested carriers. There are also a lot of them around which have NHC in their pedigrees too and there's nothing being printed in any sales catalogue I've been sent in the last few weeks about that particular nightmare. I'm too far from any of the sales to find out if they say anything on sale day.

I am about to make my own unwilling contribution to the problem, for all that I wished to avoid doing so: I have too many calves from last calving to carry through this winter, so a number of them, untested, are off to a sale tomorrow. My agent tells me few such calves are bought by breeders, but I will have no control over that. The sire of most of them is AMF, but we're still waiting for the NH test to become available and I'm running out of grass.

Next year I will sell no carriers. My breed association has failed to express any concern about the problem in commercial herds. But it's not going to take too many dead black calves in the commercial world to slaughter any market for the breed in my neighbourhood. I'm small-fry compared with many of the longer-established herds, and I cannot understand the apparent complete silence on their part about the whole thing, when they have so much more to lose.

 

[Frankie]

These genetic defects are definitely a problem and, IMO, should be addressed by Associations and breeders. And not just in the black Angus breed. If you're buying a black bull of ANY breed (yes, including Longhorns, Limflex and Balancers), ask the breeder if the bull has been tested. Red Angus breeders have been including some black genetics in their breed, too, so ask before you buy.

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