ANOTHER Bottle Feeding Question

[TR]

So, thanks to Sidney411 and my inability to say no, I am now the owner of what should be a bottle calf. Knowing the plethera of information on this board, and after doing a search on bottle babies, calf won't take the bottle, etc, etc, I still have a few questions.......

This heifer seems to be around a month or maybe more old by the looks of her teeth. She's small, so its hard to tell. Since she's from the sale barn, only the good Lord knows what her story is, but from her condition, she looks to maybe have been an orphan and has been stealing milk and making her way the best she can. You've seen them, light boned, light in the rear, a bit (but not much) pot bellied, and not bawling like a newly weaned calf. The only time she has bawled was when she saw the other cows come up to the pen for water. She's in a 12X12 stall that is well ventilated and gets morning sunshine, and I'd like to keep her in there until I can see what she's eating, how well she's eating, and know that I can get her penned if needed.

Anyway, she doesn't like the bottle....I've tried all the tricks I've read about here, but I think we're both wearing more milk replacer than actually got in her this morning. She has good quality grass hay in with her, and since it was late Sat afternoon when I got her and all the feed stores were closed by then, I put in a handful of horse sweet feed in there with her to see if she would eat grain, with the plan of getting some good quality calf starter first thing when the feed store opens up on Monday morning. She also has a bucket of fresh water too. After struggling with her last evening with the bottle, I figured to leave her with the other food stuff in the stall so she would be good and hungry for the bottle attempt this morning.....okay, so no go with the bottle this morning. BUT, she had eaten the grain, nibbled at the hay, and drank some water last night.

She's very bright eyed and bushy tailed, well hydrated and pretty strong. Meaning, I have a hard time catching her to force the bottle in her mouth. She got a prophalactyc LA200 shot not 30 seconds after she put her feet on the ground here, but is breathing a bit rattly after forcing the milk replacer down her throat. I'm guessing she's aspirating a bit of milk replacer as she's struggling against the bottle.

So the advice on here is to continue working with her and the bottle, and use a sheeps nipple instead of the big cow one. My question is, how long at one sitting do you keep working with them? Until the bottle is empty or until I have a full 2 quarts in her? I probably got half a bottle down her this morning. The rest is on me, on her, and on the floor of the stall. Since she seems to be eating a bit of grain and drinking water should I keep on trying the bottle 2X daily? Or since she's probably only getting half a bottle in her at one time, try half a bottle 3 or 4X a day? I really need another hand...one to hold the bottle, one to work her mouth, and one to scratch her hiney.....anyway, I'm off to get a lambs nipple for this evening's feeding......

 

[Workinonit Farm]

Here's a thought, if, worst case scenario, you absolutely cannot get her to take a bottle, does she drink water from the bucket? If so, perhaps she'll drink the milk from the bucket.

I have actually had more difficulty getting them to take to a bucket rather than the bottle. So, I have buckets with nipples that hang on a board.

Have you tried the turkey-baster method? Will she suck your thumb? Perhaps whatever "milk" she had been getting tasted better/different from what you have?

I cannot think of any more to add than what has already been posted in athe past posts on this topic.

Good luck with her.

Katherine

 

[Gliderider]

When we started our bottle calves on feed, we used horse sweet feed. They liked it and usually finished most of it, once they figured out how to eat it. When we weaned them we put some dry milk replacer ontop of the feed and they ate all of it as well. I bought special calf feed and they wouldn't eat it, so I have been feeding them horse sweet feed ever since. They are now above 400#s at 7 months.
I'd try using a bucket, and if that doesn't work, add the milk replacer ontop of the feed and leave it at that.
Good luck.

 

[msscamp]

The bottle nipple is so much different from mom's that, a lot of times, it's difficult to transition them to a bottle unless they are downright starving. I just keep working with them until the light finally clicks, sometimes Karo syrup or molasses on the nipple will help. It has also been my experience that, with a lot of calves, they will eat something like COB much better than they will eat something like Startena - more molasses on the COB hence better taste. If she absolutely will not take the bottle, mix the milk replacer with her feed - it will stick to the molasses and she will still get the nutrition from it. Just my thoughts. Good luck!

 

[randiliana]

THose are good suggestions. The only other thing I could think of is that if you happen to have another bottle calf, put them in together or at least where she can see you feeding the other calf.

We found this one out by accident last summer, when we lost 5 cows on alfalfa. We had 3 young calves, but could only get 2 of them onto a bottle. The third would fight just like you are saying, and since she was a little bit older we just quit with her. They were getting dairy calf ration, and we continued to bottle feed the other 2. Anyways, after about a week you could see this third calf watching with more and more interest everytime we brought the bottles out. So I tried her again, and she took right to the bottle. So they do learn by watching.

 

[TR]

I think the hard part is not knowing exactly how old she is. If I knew for sure she was 6 weeks, then I wouldn't be as concerned about her needing milk knowing that her rumen was developed enough to handle feed and hay. As it is, I don't think she's eating enough hay/feed to negate milk replacer and would feel better if she would just take the dern bottle! :x I haven't seen her chewing any cud, so I'm inclined to think 3 to 4 weeks old, but then again, she hasn't put enough hay or feed in her belly yet to warrent cud chewing.

She won't suck my fingers and spends most of her time trying to get away from me. I've learned that your legs can act as a squeeze and/or a head gate while straddling them though.

I thought about Medic's turkey baster after reading his post from a while back, but the calf nipple I've been using has a pretty big hole in it, and with a gentle squeeze of the bottle it puts milk at the back of her throat like a turkey baster would. So milk is getting down her, but its a real struggle.

I'll try the sheep nipple for a while, and see if we get some suction. About the closest she's come is to hold the calf nipple in her teeth. I got excited the first time she did that thinking it was her sucking that was keeping the bottle in place and that we were making progress.....then I figured out that the world looks a bit different when you're viewing it upside down, bent over a calf!

So back to my original questions...when working with her, how long at one sitting? Til the bottle is empty 2 X a day no matter what? Or would half a bottle 3 or 4 X a day (less struggle time) be better?

Thanks ya'll. I know this topic has been exhausted, but each case is a little different, eh?

 

[msscamp]

So back to my original questions...when working with her, how long at one sitting? Til the bottle is empty 2 X a day no matter what? Or would half a bottle 3 or 4 X a day (less struggle time) be better?

Thanks ya'll. I know this topic has been exhausted, but each case is a little different, eh?

I usually work with a calf this size for 15-30 minutes or until I become frustrated, whichever comes first - then adjust the number of feedings according to how much I was able to get down the calf. :lol: :lol: Not real helpful I know, but that's how I do it. Where you don't know this calfs history, 1/2 a bottle 3 or 4 times a day might work a little better just because of the possibility of scours if she isn't used to a lot of milk.

 

[TR]

THose are good suggestions. The only other thing I could think of is that if you happen to have another bottle calf, put them in together or at least where she can see you feeding the other calf.

Ya know? I thought about going to get another calf for just that reason. They do so much better with a buddy......And of course, I've moved my herd's calving to the fall, so no calves to be had that are already out here to keep her company unless I go buy one.....then I remembered Honey's $500 goldfish story...you know the one....where you win a $0.30 gold fish at a carnival and take it home, but don't have a fish bowl to put it in, so you go to the pet store to buy a fish bowl, but then think its too small, and the fish might be lonely, so you get him a buddy, then you think that the bigger bowl might not be enough room for 2 fish, so you buy an aquarium.....and pretty soon, your $0.30 gold fish has cost you $500! :lol:

msscamp,
So instead of getting the startena when the feed store opens tomorrow, I should get a cob? Horse and Mule is the closest we have to a cob down here, and its only at 10% protein, so knowing that she doesn't like the milk replacer and may turn her nose up at even the Horse and Mule with it sprinkled on top of it, would I be better off getting the startena that already has the nutrients in it and say a bag of dried molassas to add to it instead?

Also, what if she's not eating much hay? Would she blow out her rumen by eating mostly the grain? Acidosis?

 

[TR]

I usually work with a calf this size for 15-30 minutes or until I become frustrated, whichever comes first - then adjust the number of feedings according to how much I was able to get down the calf. :lol: :lol: Not real helpful I know, but that's how I do it. Where you don't know this calfs history, 1/2 a bottle 3 or 4 times a day might work a little better just because of the possibility of scours if she isn't used to a lot of milk.

Excellent msscamp! That's very helpful! Thanks! I was sort of leaning in that direction (feeding smaller amount more often), and did actually mix her bottle with only half the milk replacer this morning, figuring with all the stress and change in diet and such, it was better if she got less replacer and more water to keep her hydrated.

We can get half a bottle down with minimal struggle, so I think until the light bulb goes on (or not) I might try smaller amounts more often.

 

[msscamp]

THose are good suggestions. The only other thing I could think of is that if you happen to have another bottle calf, put them in together or at least where she can see you feeding the other calf.

Ya know? I thought about going to get another calf for just that reason. They do so much better with a buddy......And of course, I've moved my herd's calving to the fall, so no calves to be had that are already out here to keep her company unless I go buy one.....

Do you have any weaning calves around? If you do you could pick out a smaller, gentle weaning calf and put it in with this baby. I've done that before with good results. I put up a creep feeder gate that the calf could get through, but the weanling couldn't and fed the grain seperate. Do you have the capability to do something like that? An added bonus was the weaning calf helped the bucket calf to get to eating good.

msscamp,
So instead of getting the startena when the feed store opens tomorrow, I should get a cob? Horse and Mule is the closest we have to a cob down here, and its only at 10% protein, so knowing that she doesn't like the milk replacer and may turn her nose up at even the Horse and Mule with it sprinkled on top of it, would I be better off getting the startena that already has the nutrients in it and say a bag of dried molassas to add to it instead?

I would try the startena first, she will sort out anything she doesn't like (usually they sort out the pellets for a while), then if she isn't eating it very well mix in a little of the horse and mule. She gets the nutrition from the started and the taste from the sweet feed.

Also, what if she's not eating much hay? Would she blow out her rumen by eating mostly the grain? Acidosis?

She'll get to where she'll eat the hay, make sure it's good quality. As long as you're not feeding her a hugh amount of grain she should be fine. I usually start them out at maybe 1/2 a cup (I tend to err on the side of caution, plus the smaller amount of grain tends to encourage them to eat the hay) and increase gradually to 2 cups a day. Then, as they grow I'll increase the grain periodically until they hit a max of a 3 pound coffee can once a day. I try to make sure they always have hay in front of them. I usually start with good grass and then, once they are eating good, add a little alfalfa until they are getting grass either morning or night and alfalfa the other feeding. Just how I do it.

 

[TR]

Do you have any weaning calves around? If you do you could pick out a smaller, gentle weaning calf and put it in with this baby. I've done that before with good results. I put up a creep feeder gate that the calf could get through, but the weanling couldn't and fed the grain seperate. Do you have the capability to do something like that? An added bonus was the weaning calf helped the bucket calf to get to eating good.

I never thought of that.....I totally forgot about this small yearling heifer out here who might work. She could use the extra feed too.

I would try the startena first, she will sort out anything she doesn't like (usually they sort out the pellets for a while), then if she isn't eating it very well mix in a little of the horse and mule. She gets the nutrition from the started and the taste from the sweet feed.

I think that my feed store mixes up their own version of a calf starter, and its very molassasy...I might try some of that depending on how it compares with the Purina...I'm a big believer in Purina feeds.....

She'll get to where she'll eat the hay, make sure it's good quality.

Horse quality coastal. Fertilized and weed free. Gave her the good stuff. ;-)

As long as you're not feeding her a hugh amount of grain she should be fine. I usually start them out at maybe 1/2 a cup (I tend to err on the side of caution, plus the smaller amount of grain tends to encourage them to eat the hay) and increase gradually to 2 cups a day. Then, as they grow I'll increase the grain periodically until they hit a max of a 3 pound coffee can once a day. I try to make sure they always have hay in front of them. I usually start with good grass and then, once they are eating good, add a little alfalfa until they are getting grass either morning or night and alfalfa the other feeding.

Excellent! Thank you very much! I was wondering about the alfalfa. Its easier to get down here than the grass hay is right now, but I thought that it might be a bit rich for her just yet.

 

[msscamp]

You're welcome! Good luck and have fun with your new baby.

 

[randiliana]

No, I wasn't suggesting you buy a calf (unless that was your plan anyway) 8) but, thought maybe you had another one around.

Here is a link to thread that Caustic Burno posted not all that long ago. It is about early weaning, which is essentially what you have going on here. Anyways it is worth the read.

http://cattletoday.com/forum/viewtopic. ... ly+weaning

 

[ctlbaron]

If it's eating grain and drinking water it will be ok. If you want it to drink milk replacer I would mix up a bottle and hang a bucket (No nipple) in the stall and see if it drank it. If it does keep putting it in there for a while. If it doesn't drink it and continued to eat the grain I'd just go with that. It will eat and drink when it is hungry or thirsty.

 

[TR]

Okay. I give up....I'm gonna tube her tonight. Just came in from the bottle attempt again. She's getting weak, and that's not good. I went to grab her and she just layed down. Noodle calf. I have to wonder if she has ever really had a full belly. Maybe a few times tubing will help her remember what its like to be full. She will not suck period, and won't drink the milk replacer out of the bucket. She only nibbles at grain and hay. Certainly not enough to sustain her.