Angus x Hereford Bull

[Anonymous]

I have a young bull calf that is 3/4 Angus and 1/4 Hereford. He is solid black. He is also shaping up nicely. Considering all the talk about using crossbred bulls for better heterosis, etc. Would this be a good combo? He is just about weaning age so he would be 2 yrs old about the time I will be needing a new bull. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

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[Anonymous]

A crossbred bull will not throw the heterosis he gained from being a cross into his calves. The bull will throw some calves typical angus, and some that resemble hereford. You will have the odd white face show up, and possibly other colors depending on your cows.

Jason

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[Anonymous]

depends on the breed of your cows, but I will prefer Purebreed Bull no mattering the cows breed

> I have a young bull calf that is
> 3/4 Angus and 1/4 Hereford. He is
> solid black. He is also shaping up
> nicely. Considering all the talk
> about using crossbred bulls for
> better heterosis, etc. Would this
> be a good combo? He is just about
> weaning age so he would be 2 yrs
> old about the time I will be
> needing a new bull. Any thoughts
> would be appreciated.



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[Anonymous]

> I have a young bull calf that is
> 3/4 Angus and 1/4 Hereford. He is
> solid black. He is also shaping up
> nicely. Considering all the talk
> about using crossbred bulls for
> better heterosis, etc. Would this
> be a good combo? He is just about
> weaning age so he would be 2 yrs
> old about the time I will be
> needing a new bull. Any thoughts
> would be appreciated.

you would be better to stick with pure bred and outside blood. keeping our own calves as bulls is not a good idea unless they are seedstock purebred. just my two cents it causes our quality to begin to slip.

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[Anonymous]

For a seemingly educated fellow, you sure do disparage crossbreeding and the heterosis that goes along with it. I prefer to assume that you just don't understand the effects of heterosis rather than that you purposely mislead people on these message boards.

 

[Anonymous]

If the bull seems to have the traits that you like and are trying to breed into your cattle, use him, do not let these guys who "worship at the alter of the purebred business" mislead you. Sure would be a terrible tradgedy if you happened to get a white face calve. Oh horrors! If you are a purebred breeder and are trying to gain an edge by using a crossbred bull (don't worry, you wouldn't be the first) please disregard my first comments and sell the bull

 

[Anonymous]

I never said crossbreeding had no beneficial effect. Heterosis comes from the initial cross, but that effect is only enjoyed by the first animal. The same heteriosis cannot be passed on in the next cross, the next cross provides it's own heterosis, but if too many crosses are made the cattle tend to become less vigorous, mongrels.

The advantage to having a herd of F1 cows is that those cows enjoy the benefits of heterosis. A third breed cross on those cows provides the calves with the maximum heterosis, but some variation in genes from the different breeds becomes apperant.

Using a crossbred bull lacks the same benefits of having the crossbred cows. One animal benefiting from heterosis instead of all the cows.

Further, crossbred cattle do not have accurate epds, if any at all, and that leaves genetic change/improvement in herds to chance.

Raising bulls is more than not casterating steers. If people would calculate the sale of the steer left as a bull, all the feed, the semen testing, having some not be fertile, and the genetic edge they lose using a generic bull, they would see they are money ahead to buy a good bull from an established breeder.

Jason

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[Anonymous]

I was wrong, Jason, it appears that you do know a little bit about heterosis and maybe even enough to realize that a large amount of heterosis IS retained and expressed in a composite population.

Guess you are trying to mislead people after all.

 

[Anonymous]

> If the bull seems to have the
> traits that you like and are
> trying to breed into your cattle,
> use him, do not let these guys who
> "worship at the alter of the
> purebred business" mislead
> you. Sure would be a terrible
> tradgedy if you happened to get a
> white face calve. Oh horrors! If
> you are a purebred breeder and are
> trying to gain an edge by using a
> crossbred bull (don't worry, you
> wouldn't be the first) please
> disregard my first comments and
> sell the bull

I am not a purebred breeder. I am trying to grow and improve my commercial herd. I tried the purebred business at first and found that it didn't suit my goals. You pay alot of money for cows with little or no extra return. Half my herd is purebred beefmasters. The rest is either angus, hereford, or a cross between the other three. I am trying to improve the rears and remove some of the ear. Thats why I have changed bulls. I also don't see why heterosis wouldn't be passed thru the bull just like it would with a cow. Isn't that the idea with the balancer bulls?

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[Anonymous]

A crossbred bull will add some hybrid vigor. How much depends on what sort of cows he's used on. The problem with crossbred bulls is consistency. There are many changes going on in the beef business in the US. More and more branded beef programs willing to pay premiums for consistent beef, whether it's Laura's Lean or CAB. When you breed a crossbred bull to a crossbred cow, you probably have no idea what sort of calf you will get. If you use a registered bull with reliable EPDs, you will at least know what half the calf is going to be. A 3-way cross gives you good hybrid vigor; Balancer bulls on Beefmaster cows, for example. If you put that same bull on a herd of Beefmaster/Angus/Simmental cows, you'll get a bit more hybrid vigor, but likely an inconsistent calf crop, both in terms of growth and quality.

 

[Anonymous]

Check the numbers. Unless a third breed is used you start loosing heterosis quickly with the back crosses. If you used a Angus X Hereford bull on a third breed, say Simmenthal, you would keep maximizing heterosis. Bakc crosses loose 50% of the heterosis that that breed contributed to the original level.

dun

> I was wrong, Jason, it appears
> that you do know a little bit
> about heterosis and maybe even
> enough to realize that a large
> amount of heterosis IS retained
> and expressed in a composite
> population.

> Guess you are trying to mislead
> people after all.

 

[Anonymous]

I never try to mislead anyone. The basic reason for crossbreeding is to gain hybrid vigor. The crossed animal should be more than the straightbred parents combined. Items like longevity, fertility and growth should be better in crossbred animals. If all the gains were passed on to each subsequent generation multi-crossed animals would be far superior to straightbred animals. So far no cross or number of crosses has been proven to continue to excell in any trait. As soon as those crossed animals are bred to each other, you are back to a straighbreeding situation, but with a mess of mixed up genes.

The best crossbreeding programs use purebred parents, or F1 females from purebred parents. Crossing in new breeds on the premis of hererosis is a sure way to have no consistancy. If this wasn't true, there would be no more purebred breeds and all cattle would be just random crosses.

Jason

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[Anonymous]

You truly do NOT understand retained heterosis in subsequent generations of composite type cattle, so please accept my apologies for implying that you were trying to mislead folks.

 

[Anonymous]

this bul, who is reputed to have these traits, is also a crossbred, so you don't know what his exact genetic makeup is. and not to burst your bubble, but you will get a 50% chance that you will loose all heterosis in your calves (calves that are of the exact genetic makeup as their grandparents) and 50% chance that you only loose 50% of the heterosis, but heterosis is always lost when using a crossed bull on a herd made up out of the same cross as he is.

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[Anonymous]

yes, but the balancer bulls should not be used on balancer cows. the idea between the balancer is to get the good traits from both breeds into one bull, that bull will then pass on a mix of those genes to his calves. which is actually only good if you have a very inconsistent cow herd, and you want to get some consistency in your calves, otherwise the balancer is not a good idea in my opinion.

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[Anonymous]

> this bul, who is reputed to have
> these traits, is also a crossbred,
> so you don't know what his exact
> genetic makeup is. and not to
> burst your bubble, but you will
> get a 50% chance that you will
> loose all heterosis in your calves
> (calves that are of the exact
> genetic makeup as their
> grandparents) and 50% chance that
> you only loose 50% of the
> heterosis, but heterosis is always
> lost when using a crossed bull on
> a herd made up out of the same
> cross as he is.

Thanks for all the information. I was planning on using him on my beefmaster cows.

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[Anonymous]

ooops, will be best if you use true balancer breeds: examples; Normande, Braunvieh, Tarentaise, South Devon

> yes, but the balancer bulls should
> not be used on balancer cows. the
> idea between the balancer is to
> get the good traits from both
> breeds into one bull, that bull
> will then pass on a mix of those
> genes to his calves. which is
> actually only good if you have a
> very inconsistent cow herd, and
> you want to get some consistency
> in your calves, otherwise the
> balancer is not a good idea in my
> opinion.



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