Angus vs Hereford

[cowtex]

I made a comment on a previous post about the difference between the Angus and the Hereford EPD's. I know there are plenty of experts of both breeds on this board that might explain the difference between the two breed EPD's . I have had angus cow guys that have come to the ranch to look at Hereford bulls but if the birth wt is 3 they might say oh my that's to high for my cows. But I will say but wait a minute our 3 is like a 1 on your breed's epds. Oh no I couldn't buy a 3 birth wt. Can someone explain?

 

[Kingfisher]

I would ask em why are you even here on the way to the gate.............................................

 

[cowtex]

Well, that's not quite the answer I was looking for. There is an answer about the difference between Angus and Herefrd EPD's. I just want to know how you adjust the numbers to put everything on a level playing field.

 

[Kingfisher]

There is an answer about the difference between Angus and Herefrd EPD's. I just want to know how you adjust the numbers to put everything on a level playing field.[/quote]

Hello. Put em on a field of grass.............your question is soo open ended it does not really matter............that is just my opinion. I know your looking for some thing more solid.......but I have to question your ANgus buddies motives............

 

[Isomade]

There is an answer about the difference between Angus and Herefrd EPD's. I just want to know how you adjust the numbers to put everything on a level playing field.

Hello. Put em on a field of grass.............your question is soo open ended it does not really matter............that is just my opinion. I know your looking for some thing more solid.......but I have to question your ANgus buddies motives............[/quote]
:shock: Say no to drugs boys and girls.

 

[Isomade]

I made a comment on a previous post about the difference between the Angus and the Hereford EPD's. I know there are plenty of experts of both breeds on this board that might explain the difference between the two breed EPD's . I have had angus cow guys that have come to the ranch to look at Hereford bulls but if the birth wt is 3 they might say oh my that's to high for my cows. But I will say but wait a minute our 3 is like a 1 on your breed's epds. Oh no I couldn't buy a 3 birth wt. Can someone explain?

Cowtex, I think it's just plain old ignorance. Most people, even though they have been in the business for 40-50 years only look at one EPD number in the first place and that is BW. They have no understanding that the EPDs are different for each breed. The average BW EPD for Angus is 1.9 for Hereford it's 3.6. But since their last few bulls were Angus it's the only EPD they are familiar with. Might have to just educate em.

 

[dun]

Find the acrsoss breed EPDs, they're available on the net and have been posted on here a bunch of times. That gives you adjustment factors for different breeds EPDs so they can be looked at from the same base

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Access http://www.dogpile.com

Type "Across breed EPD's" in subject box.

Scroll down to "2009 Tables"

DOC HARRIS

 

[Commercialfarmer]

I don't know why your wasting your time messing with off brand breeds and trying to lead people down the path of destruction.

http://pubs.ext.vt.edu/news/livestock/2 ... -10-4.html

If you look at the link provided you can see that it not only provides across breed epd's in the top table, but the bottom table then shows you that Angus is superior not only in decreased BW but also the spread to higher YW on a breed basis- only breeds with better YW are Charolais, and Simmental. Before anyone gets their feathers ruffled, I'm not knocking any bread- the data being thrown around just doesn't seem legit to me.

I understand sample sizes and statistical priciples. But in my small sample population- I have not experienced the across breed epd's being close to accurate when making adjustments. I bred a few shorthorn/angus crosses 2 years ago to experiment with some F1 females. The bull had a BW of 0.9 and breed average for SH in 09 was 2.0 per the sire summary report. So taking into account the across breed epd of SH BW of 6.4- the calves should have been below average for SH but above average still for Angus.

Compared to an angus bull with a 2.2 BW with a breed average of 1.9, the bull would be slightly above average BW for angus.

Using across breed averages for BW Angus 0.0 Shorthorn 6.4

Shorthorn bull would be= 0.9 + 6.4 = 7.3 lbs
Angus bull would be= 2.2 + 0 = 2.2 lbs

So a difference of 7.3-2.2 = 5.1 lbs heavier BW for the shorthorn bull.

My findings were that the calves were considerably smaller than average. They were not average and especially not 5 lbs heavier.

Again, I know I have a small population and therefor will not prove or disprove anything. But it is enough, for me to take notice and question the values being used.

 

[dun]

I don't know why your wasting your time messing with off brand breeds and trying to lead people down the path of destruction.

http://pubs.ext.vt.edu/news/livestock/2 ... -10-4.html

If you look at the link provided you can see that it not only provides across breed epd's in the top table, but the bottom table then shows you that Angus is superior not only in decreased BW but also the spread to higher YW on a breed basis- only breeds with better YW are Charolais, and Simmental. Before anyone gets their feathers ruffled, I'm not knocking any bread- the data being thrown around just doesn't seem legit to me.

I understand sample sizes and statistical priciples. But in my small sample population- I have not experienced the across breed epd's being close to accurate when making adjustments. I bred a few shorthorn/angus crosses 2 years ago to experiment with some F1 females. The bull had a BW of 0.9 and breed average for SH in 09 was 2.0 per the sire summary report. So taking into account the across breed epd of SH BW of 6.4- the calves should have been below average for SH but above average still for Angus.

Compared to an angus bull with a 2.2 BW with a breed average of 1.9, the bull would be slightly above average BW for angus.

Using across breed averages for BW Angus 0.0 Shorthorn 6.4

Shorthorn bull would be= 0.9 + 6.4 = 7.3 lbs
Angus bull would be= 2.2 + 0 = 2.2 lbs

So a difference of 7.3-2.2 = 5.1 lbs heavier BW for the shorthorn bull.

My findings were that the calves were considerably smaller than average. They were not average and especially not 5 lbs heavier.

Again, I know I have a small population and therefor will not prove or disprove anything. But it is enough, for me to take notice and question the values being used.

Your data would only be valid if you used 2 bulls, one from each breed at the same time. That would be the only way to tell if there was something else causing the differences between what you saw and what you expected

 

[Caustic Burno]

EPD's are a tool that mean nothing to me unless I can see the bull in his working clothes and his progeny on the ground.
You have a group of cattlemen hanging there hat on data based on breeding over the last forty years that is dealing with genetics thousands of years old. EPD's will become more and more acurate over time with honest input. The problem is honest input. Three things will cause a man to break all ten commandmnets a dollar bill, a land deed and a woman. Due to marketing genius of black we have sucessfully destroyed most of the breeds in the USA turning them into a cesspool of Angus gentics for black hide not quality. You now have introduced hybred vigor through crossbreeding to achieve black hide and expect epd's to be gospel. The Angus association has done some wonderful things in marketing and improving their breed as well as the Hereford as these are a couple that don't allow breeding up.
With that said IMO there has been some hanky panky in both breeds the behemoth Angus overnight, Herefords that popped up with google eyes and the white mane disappearing. I have both breeds standing in the pasture. I just have no illusions about either or the superiority of either.

 

[Caustic Burno]

I don't know why your wasting your time messing with off brand breeds and trying to lead people down the path of destruction.

http://pubs.ext.vt.edu/news/livestock/2 ... -10-4.html

If you look at the link provided you can see that it not only provides across breed epd's in the top table, but the bottom table then shows you that Angus is superior not only in decreased BW but also the spread to higher YW on a breed basis- only breeds with better YW are Charolais, and Simmental. Before anyone gets their feathers ruffled, I'm not knocking any bread- the data being thrown around just doesn't seem legit to me.

I understand sample sizes and statistical priciples. But in my small sample population- I have not experienced the across breed epd's being close to accurate when making adjustments. I bred a few shorthorn/angus crosses 2 years ago to experiment with some F1 females. The bull had a BW of 0.9 and breed average for SH in 09 was 2.0 per the sire summary report. So taking into account the across breed epd of SH BW of 6.4- the calves should have been below average for SH but above average still for Angus.

Compared to an angus bull with a 2.2 BW with a breed average of 1.9, the bull would be slightly above average BW for angus.

Using across breed averages for BW Angus 0.0 Shorthorn 6.4

Shorthorn bull would be= 0.9 + 6.4 = 7.3 lbs
Angus bull would be= 2.2 + 0 = 2.2 lbs

So a difference of 7.3-2.2 = 5.1 lbs heavier BW for the shorthorn bull.

My findings were that the calves were considerably smaller than average. They were not average and especially not 5 lbs heavier.

Again, I know I have a small population and therefor will not prove or disprove anything. But it is enough, for me to take notice and question the values being used.

Your data would only be valid if you used 2 bulls, one from each breed at the same time. That would be the only way to tell if there was something else causing the differences between what you saw and what you expected

There will always be anomolies when dealing with a group of F-1's and the amount of data in the genetic pool wasn't enough to change the level of the pool.
Secondly this the second worse genetic crossing you can make the only one worse is Hereford/Shorthorn.
http://jas.fass.org/cgi/content/abstract/28/4/431

 

[vclavin]

I don't know why your wasting your time messing with off brand breeds and trying to lead people down the path of destruction.

http://pubs.ext.vt.edu/news/livestock/2 ... -10-4.html

If you look at the link provided you can see that it not only provides across breed epd's in the top table, but the bottom table then shows you that Angus is superior not only in decreased BW but also the spread to higher YW on a breed basis- only breeds with better YW are Charolais, and Simmental. Before anyone gets their feathers ruffled, I'm not knocking any bread- the data being thrown around just doesn't seem legit to me.

I understand sample sizes and statistical priciples. But in my small sample population- I have not experienced the across breed epd's being close to accurate when making adjustments. I bred a few shorthorn/angus crosses 2 years ago to experiment with some F1 females. The bull had a BW of 0.9 and breed average for SH in 09 was 2.0 per the sire summary report. So taking into account the across breed epd of SH BW of 6.4- the calves should have been below average for SH but above average still for Angus.

Compared to an angus bull with a 2.2 BW with a breed average of 1.9, the bull would be slightly above average BW for angus.

Using across breed averages for BW Angus 0.0 Shorthorn 6.4

Shorthorn bull would be= 0.9 + 6.4 = 7.3 lbs
Angus bull would be= 2.2 + 0 = 2.2 lbs

So a difference of 7.3-2.2 = 5.1 lbs heavier BW for the shorthorn bull.

My findings were that the calves were considerably smaller than average. They were not average and especially not 5 lbs heavier.

Again, I know I have a small population and therefor will not prove or disprove anything. But it is enough, for me to take notice and question the values being used.

In making a crossbreed, don't forget heterosis not only increases the ww, but also the birthweight as well.
Valerie

 

[3waycross]

I don't know why your wasting your time messing with off brand breeds and trying to lead people down the path of destruction.

http://pubs.ext.vt.edu/news/livestock/2 ... -10-4.html

If you look at the link provided you can see that it not only provides across breed epd's in the top table, but the bottom table then shows you that Angus is superior not only in decreased BW but also the spread to higher YW on a breed basis- only breeds with better YW are Charolais, and Simmental. Before anyone gets their feathers ruffled, I'm not knocking any bread- the data being thrown around just doesn't seem legit to me.

I understand sample sizes and statistical priciples. But in my small sample population- I have not experienced the across breed epd's being close to accurate when making adjustments. I bred a few shorthorn/angus crosses 2 years ago to experiment with some F1 females. The bull had a BW of 0.9 and breed average for SH in 09 was 2.0 per the sire summary report. So taking into account the across breed epd of SH BW of 6.4- the calves should have been below average for SH but above average still for Angus.

Compared to an angus bull with a 2.2 BW with a breed average of 1.9, the bull would be slightly above average BW for angus.

Using across breed averages for BW Angus 0.0 Shorthorn 6.4

Shorthorn bull would be= 0.9 + 6.4 = 7.3 lbs
Angus bull would be= 2.2 + 0 = 2.2 lbs

So a difference of 7.3-2.2 = 5.1 lbs heavier BW for the shorthorn bull.

My findings were that the calves were considerably smaller than average. They were not average and especially not 5 lbs heavier.
Again, I know I have a small population and therefor will not prove or disprove anything. But it is enough, for me to take notice and question the values being used.

In making a crossbreed, don't forget heterosis not only increases the ww, but also the birthweight as well.
Valerie

Valerie, please read his post again and explain your statement.

 

[vclavin]

You're right 3way, I should learn to read. lol
Valerie

 

[3waycross]

You're right 3way, I should learn to read. lol
Valerie

I did not mean to offend you, Valerie. I do it all the time!

 

[Herefords.US]

If your customers were comparing high accuracy (.6 or higher) EPD bulls, usually for AI use, then they might have some basis for comparison.

But to use their EPDs to compare unproven virgin bulls across breeds ...or even comparing bulls from different herds of the same breed....is pretty well a futile and BOGUS exercise. They might as well be pizzin' into the wind! There are so many things that should rank higher in importance in their selection process.

The only cure for that kind of ignorance is an attempt to educate them. But we all know some folks are resistant to education :bang: - especially when you've got some breeders and the breed associations BOGUSLY touting EPDs as the panacea for EVERY problem that exists in the beef cattle industry.

George

 

[backhoeboogie]

I don't know why your wasting your time messing with off brand breeds and trying to lead people down the path of destruction.

I bred a few shorthorn/angus crosses 2 years ago to experiment with some F1 females. The bull had a BW of 0.9 and breed average for SH in 09 was 2.0 per the sire summary report. So taking into account the across breed epd of SH BW of 6.4- the calves should have been below average for SH but above average still for

So a difference of 7.3-2.2 = 5.1 lbs heavier BW for the shorthorn bull.

My findings were that the calves were considerably smaller than average. They were not average and especially not 5 lbs heavier.

Again, I know I have a small population and therefor will not prove or disprove anything. But it is enough, for me to take notice and question the values being used.

You start with a generic statement without consideration of his environment or market.

Then you give an all knowing statement that you are entitled to experiment. Post your results with a different cross.

Then you say you are to small to prove anything.

The original post had to do with someone selling a bull to someone else.

One breed is not suitable for everyone's needs or environments. Then consider the market. I've got a heart patient who was a long time customer. His doc is telling him he can eat all the beef he wants provided it is LH. I don't have any. If I did I could sell one every year.

So you were trying to reproduce MG's in your climate?

 

[cowtex]

Thanks for the information. It sure would ne nice if all breeds were on the same page with their numbers but I don't think that will probably happen.

 

[Busterz]

In response to the original question, I had never really looked at Hereford epd's until about a year ago and I had looked at a lot of Angus epd's before that so I was in the situation where I started looking at the numbers and the Herefords appeared significantly higher. So what I did was go to the Hereford Association website and found the breed average epds and the breed average birth weigths. You can then see the average weight corresponding to the average epd and and make more of a comaprison to the Angus numbers if you know the average Angus birth weight and the average angus BW epd.

Thats what I did anyway. :hide: