Angus Terminal/Maternal

[Red Bull Breeder]

None of the reasons you listed BR. You would be surprised how many members of AAA or any other breed do not vote in the elections or take part in the nominating process. Check you own breed election and nominating process.

 

[NEFarmwife]

You have to look at the board of directors, they give direction to the breed.

RBB, you and I are not AAA members but we can at least ponder the question:

Why would a Board of Trustees who are elected by the members and decorated Angus folks themselves deliberately undermine the breed?

Incompetence
Ignorance
Apathy
Fraud


It is illogical

I am not following it real closely but there was quite a shake up by the Association for doing things that wasn't done properly.

 

[CreekAngus]

You will find the faster growth comes with bigger packages.

I agree. 100 % on that.

I think Ken is seeing what I am seeing. He has a thread going. I am not an Angus producer but reading CT makes me wonder if the breed is falling apart.

When Users are saying the AAA does this or that, do they mean the administrators, the board of Trustees or the members?

A few months back there was a huge poop storm where the ceo was canned and the new values were put in play. Here is what I know, a lot of the big players feel that the major players in the breed have far too much say and these new values are more reinforcement. Just look at some of the posts this last week, where members are actually believing the new $M value and now will begin to pursue it, wait till the $C comes out. Problem with creating some of these values based on half baked formulas is they are messing with people's cows, the $M just like Milk means nothing, but you will see folks using those two things over and over again to make breed decisions. So yes, you are right on both fronts, the AAA is causing problems and breeders are causing problems as well. EPD's unfortunately end up defining herds and if you run cattle that make it into their teenage years, you're getting left behind, but you have what the breed wants.....Maternal. But the breed is discounting those cattle and has been for years.

 

[Bright Raven]

You have to look at the board of directors, they give direction to the breed.

RBB, you and I are not AAA members but we can at least ponder the question:

Why would a Board of Trustees who are elected by the members and decorated Angus folks themselves deliberately undermine the breed?

Incompetence
Ignorance
Apathy
Fraud


It is illogical

I am not following it real closely but there was quite a shake up by the Association for doing things that wasn't done properly.

Mod2 made the following statement and I quote:

"....... this is certainly not good for the breed to the outside viewer and surely cast a dim light on the industry."

That was on a previous thread. In light of that observation and the thread Ken put up about the plethora of Angus allegations, as Ken stated, if criticisms of a breed or Association are going to be made they should:

1. Be documented at least to the extent that it is not just rhetoric, exaggeration or tall tales.

2. Enough specifics should be provided to discuss the allegations.

I am reminded of the uprising over Branded's criticism of cattle husbandry practices. Many treated that as sacrilege, but only Ken and I have voiced wonderment at all the hearsay about how bad the Angus breed is and the AAA.

 

[Bright Raven]

You will find the faster growth comes with bigger packages.

I agree. 100 % on that.

I think Ken is seeing what I am seeing. He has a thread going. I am not an Angus producer but reading CT makes me wonder if the breed is falling apart.

When Users are saying the AAA does this or that, do they mean the administrators, the board of Trustees or the members?

A few months back there was a huge poop storm where the ceo was canned and the new values were put in play. Here is what I know, a lot of the big players feel that the major players in the breed have far too much say and these new values are more reinforcement. Just look at some of the posts this last week, where members are actually believing the new $M value and now will begin to pursue it, wait till the $C comes out. Problem with creating some of these values based on half baked formulas is they are messing with people's cows, the $M just like Milk means nothing, but you will see folks using those two things over and over again to make breed decisions. So yes, you are right on both fronts, the AAA is causing problems and breeders are causing problems as well. EPD's unfortunately end up defining herds and if you run cattle that make it into their teenage years, you're getting left behind, but you have what the breed wants.....Maternal. But the breed is discounting those cattle and has been for years.

Half baked formulas? I posted this on Ken's thread. Models are complex. In my previous career we employed Models to predict concentrations of hazardous substances. There are indeed good models and bad models.

I called the AAA yesterday. It was interesting to get first hand information on the update of some of the EPD models.

EPDs are generated by linear models. There are 3 factors that go into generating numbers from the database:

1. Parentage ( this is pedigree or knowledge/data from ancestors)
2. Performance Data ( this is raw numeric data)
3. Genomics( this is where DNA information utilizing markers is converted to numerical data).

I also called the Simmental Association. I discussed the new AAA model updates with ASA. They are quite envious of the AAA new model.

 

[Nesikep]

Here's how I see any association doing itself a disservice, and that's leaving dishonest practices out of it.
You find a new EPD to publish and collect data on, fine, but there's always going to be people chasing numbers. the $whatever EPD's are especially prone to it I think, especially when the formula is kinda a "black box" (anyone got the actual formula?)

This new $M is a great example because different traits are going to matter more or less in different environments, but the association, being nationwide, has to make a judgement call on what is considered "good"... and that might not be what you need in your area.

 

[NEFarmwife]

RBB, you and I are not AAA members but we can at least ponder the question:

Why would a Board of Trustees who are elected by the members and decorated Angus folks themselves deliberately undermine the breed?

Incompetence
Ignorance
Apathy
Fraud


It is illogical

I am not following it real closely but there was quite a shake up by the Association for doing things that wasn't done properly.

Mod2 made the following statement and I quote:

"....... this is certainly not good for the breed to the outside viewer and surely cast a dim light on the industry."

That was on a previous thread. In light of that observation and the thread Ken put up about the plethora of Angus allegations, as Ken stated, if criticisms of a breed or Association are going to be made they should:

1. Be documented at least to the extent that it is not just rhetoric, exaggeration or tall tales.

2. Enough specifics should be provided to discuss the allegations.

I am reminded of the uprising over Branded's criticism of cattle husbandry practices. Many treated that as sacrilege, but only Ken and I have voiced wonderment at all the hearsay about how bad the Angus breed is and the AAA.

I am stating there was a shake up because something wasn't done properly... to what extent, I do not know. But that is why there is some uneasiness. I do not have a problem with the association or its practices but it hasn't affected me.

 

[Bright Raven]

I am not following it real closely but there was quite a shake up by the Association for doing things that wasn't done properly.

Mod2 made the following statement and I quote:

"....... this is certainly not good for the breed to the outside viewer and surely cast a dim light on the industry."

That was on a previous thread. In light of that observation and the thread Ken put up about the plethora of Angus allegations, as Ken stated, if criticisms of a breed or Association are going to be made they should:

1. Be documented at least to the extent that it is not just rhetoric, exaggeration or tall tales.

2. Enough specifics should be provided to discuss the allegations.

I am reminded of the uprising over Branded's criticism of cattle husbandry practices. Many treated that as sacrilege, but only Ken and I have voiced wonderment at all the hearsay about how bad the Angus breed is and the AAA.

I am stating there was a shake up because something wasn't done properly... to what extent, I do not know. But that is why there is some uneasiness. I do not have a problem with the association or its practices but it hasn't affected me.

Acknowledged and I was not directing that at you, I candidly respect and admire your operation.

 

[sim.-ang.king]

I agree. 100 % on that.

I think Ken is seeing what I am seeing. He has a thread going. I am not an Angus producer but reading CT makes me wonder if the breed is falling apart.

When Users are saying the AAA does this or that, do they mean the administrators, the board of Trustees or the members?

A few months back there was a huge poop storm where the ceo was canned and the new values were put in play. Here is what I know, a lot of the big players feel that the major players in the breed have far too much say and these new values are more reinforcement. Just look at some of the posts this last week, where members are actually believing the new $M value and now will begin to pursue it, wait till the $C comes out. Problem with creating some of these values based on half baked formulas is they are messing with people's cows, the $M just like Milk means nothing, but you will see folks using those two things over and over again to make breed decisions. So yes, you are right on both fronts, the AAA is causing problems and breeders are causing problems as well. EPD's unfortunately end up defining herds and if you run cattle that make it into their teenage years, you're getting left behind, but you have what the breed wants.....Maternal. But the breed is discounting those cattle and has been for years.

Half baked formulas? I posted this on Ken's thread. Models are complex. In my previous career we employed Models to predict concentrations of hazardous substances. There are indeed good models and bad models.

I called the AAA yesterday. It was interesting to get first hand information on the update of some of the EPD models.

EPDs are generated by linear models. There are 3 factors that go into generating numbers from the database:

1. Parentage ( this is pedigree or knowledge/data from ancestors)
2. Performance Data ( this is raw numeric data)
3. Genomics( this is where DNA information utilizing markers is converted to numerical data).

I also called the Simmental Association. I discussed the new AAA model updates with ASA. They are quite envious of the AAA new model.

Models are only as good as the person that made them, and the data you put into them. Put crap in, get crap out, is a computer programming term that is as old as computer programming.

 

[Ebenezer]

I am not following it real closely but there was quite a shake up by the Association for doing things that wasn't done properly.

Mod2 made the following statement and I quote:

"....... this is certainly not good for the breed to the outside viewer and surely cast a dim light on the industry."

That was on a previous thread. In light of that observation and the thread Ken put up about the plethora of Angus allegations, as Ken stated, if criticisms of a breed or Association are going to be made they should:

1. Be documented at least to the extent that it is not just rhetoric, exaggeration or tall tales.

2. Enough specifics should be provided to discuss the allegations.

I am reminded of the uprising over Branded's criticism of cattle husbandry practices. Many treated that as sacrilege, but only Ken and I have voiced wonderment at all the hearsay about how bad the Angus breed is and the AAA.

I am stating there was a shake up because something wasn't done properly... to what extent, I do not know. But that is why there is some uneasiness. I do not have a problem with the association or its practices but it hasn't affected me.

Merely the latest skirmish in the war. The former shake up had similar power shifts. Not breaking news and not solely discussed on CT.

Here is a valid question that somehow never got answered. The two latest defects were widespread before anyone "knew" about them. Even within large scale breeders who used the source bulls heavily. How did that happen and how did the AAA deal with the issue of breeders who knew but did not tell? That was a huge economic loss for a lot of innocent people and nobody was ever found to have a guilt in the whole of it.

 

[Bright Raven]

A few months back there was a huge poop storm where the ceo was canned and the new values were put in play. Here is what I know, a lot of the big players feel that the major players in the breed have far too much say and these new values are more reinforcement. Just look at some of the posts this last week, where members are actually believing the new $M value and now will begin to pursue it, wait till the $C comes out. Problem with creating some of these values based on half baked formulas is they are messing with people's cows, the $M just like Milk means nothing, but you will see folks using those two things over and over again to make breed decisions. So yes, you are right on both fronts, the AAA is causing problems and breeders are causing problems as well. EPD's unfortunately end up defining herds and if you run cattle that make it into their teenage years, you're getting left behind, but you have what the breed wants.....Maternal. But the breed is discounting those cattle and has been for years.

Half baked formulas? I posted this on Ken's thread. Models are complex. In my previous career we employed Models to predict concentrations of hazardous substances. There are indeed good models and bad models.

I called the AAA yesterday. It was interesting to get first hand information on the update of some of the EPD models.

EPDs are generated by linear models. There are 3 factors that go into generating numbers from the database:

1. Parentage ( this is pedigree or knowledge/data from ancestors)
2. Performance Data ( this is raw numeric data)
3. Genomics( this is where DNA information utilizing markers is converted to numerical data).

I also called the Simmental Association. I discussed the new AAA model updates with ASA. They are quite envious of the AAA new model.

Models are only as good as the person that made them, and the data you put into them. Put crap in, get crap out, is a computer programming term that is as old as computer programming.

There are good models and bad models. Models are the only science that works when every member of a set of subjects cannot be measured. For example, if you are sampling for lead levels in soil, you cannot take the entire universe of soil and test it. So you take enough samples to characterize the mass and plug it into a model.

If that data that you plug into the model is not representative, then the model predictions will suffer. However, models have a threshold level. They can overcome a percentage of bad data.

 

[dbird33]

The $ indexes are pushing extremes. I have had several experiences where $B was brought up as the main consideration when buying bulls and replacement females. So, IMO all the $index marketing has worked great. It's shaping demand and it feels like the Association is pushing for more near term profitability while sacrificing longevity/maternal traits (maybe that's what the plurality of members/stakeholders want.) I've seen similar things happen to corporations who want to hit a financial objective by reducing or eliminating capital investment. I think the $ indexes promote this kind of behavior in cattle. Keep pushing for more performance without reinvesting in trouble free cattle. Trouble free doesn't sell as well as $B etc. I think a Stay epd would have been more effective in counterbalancing the $ index impulses.

 

[CattleMan1920]

My head hurts as I try to wade through all the sh.t that I'm reading.

I can say this sincerely, I would be terrified to hand over my herd to some of the people on this thread or CT in general. I think it could easily be ruined in two generations. Maybe one!

If Angus is so bad, sell your current Angus cattle, take that money, look around the bargain bin at the stockyards, grab an entirely new group of animals, and use your misguided, fly by the seat of your pants breeding techniques and theories on the new group and post progress reports for us all to see.

How about being REAL pioneers and start an entirely new bull test based on CT breeding strategies. There could even be a division that centers on strictly inbred herds. A "carrier" division for those of you that don't mind birth defects. I'm sure buyers from all of the country will be arriving with truck, trailer, and fists full of cash to buy those bulls.

Sales brochure example: "This Calico, exceeded all expectations by making it to the end of the test without dying, he is offered without a semen test (who needs that?), he may have Trichomoniasis, here is a bull that should breed at least 10 highly fertile females, he's got the works folks, bid with CONFIDENCE!"

Many of you on here are driving at night without the lights on. Ask me if I care, I really don't, doesn't affect me at all, but I still wanted to chime in on the discussion.

 

[True Grit Farms]

My head hurts as I try to wade through all the sh.t that I'm reading.

I can say this sincerely, I would be terrified to hand over my herd to some of the people on this thread or CT in general. I think it could easily be ruined in two generations. Maybe one!

If Angus is so bad, sell your current Angus cattle, take that money, look around the bargain bin at the stockyards, grab an entirely new group of animals, and use your misguided, fly by the seat of your pants breeding techniques and theories on the new group and post progress reports for us all to see.

How about being REAL pioneers and start an entirely new bull test based on CT breeding strategies. There could even be a division that centers on strictly inbred herds. A "carrier" division for those of you that don't mind birth defects. I'm sure buyers from all of the country will be arriving with truck, trailer, and fists full of cash to buy those bulls.

Sales brochure example: "This Calico, exceeded all expectations by making it to the end of the test without dying, he is offered without a semen test (who needs that?), he may have Trichomoniasis, here is a bull that should breed at least 10 highly fertile females, he's got the works folks, bid with CONFIDENCE!"

Many of you on here are driving at night without the lights on. Ask me if I care, I really don't, doesn't affect me at all, but I still wanted to chime in on the discussion.

Hopefully all the Branded BS will pay off for you one of these days. Till then you should just shut the heck up.

 

[CattleMan1920]

My head hurts as I try to wade through all the sh.t that I'm reading.

I can say this sincerely, I would be terrified to hand over my herd to some of the people on this thread or CT in general. I think it could easily be ruined in two generations. Maybe one!

If Angus is so bad, sell your current Angus cattle, take that money, look around the bargain bin at the stockyards, grab an entirely new group of animals, and use your misguided, fly by the seat of your pants breeding techniques and theories on the new group and post progress reports for us all to see.

How about being REAL pioneers and start an entirely new bull test based on CT breeding strategies. There could even be a division that centers on strictly inbred herds. A "carrier" division for those of you that don't mind birth defects. I'm sure buyers from all of the country will be arriving with truck, trailer, and fists full of cash to buy those bulls.

Sales brochure example: "This Calico, exceeded all expectations by making it to the end of the test without dying, he is offered without a semen test (who needs that?), he may have Trichomoniasis, here is a bull that should breed at least 10 highly fertile females, he's got the works folks, bid with CONFIDENCE!"

Many of you on here are driving at night without the lights on. Ask me if I care, I really don't, doesn't affect me at all, but I still wanted to chime in on the discussion.

Hopefully all the Branded BS will pay off for you one of these days. Till then you should just shut the heck up.

No B.S. just results.

I have a right to speak just as you do. I have never once told you to "shut up" have I?

What people on here don't understand is that I'm putting my money where my mouth is, no dipping the toe, no half azzery, no "let me breed one cow to AI and see what happens." I'm pushing all the chips across the table, burning the boats, so to say. Bringing it. If that makes you mad, then I really don't know what to tell you.

Don't you think I would like to see others on here who are truly going "all in on cattle"? It would be refreshing to say the least.

The race to the bottom is over, now it's the race to the top.

If that is B.S. please explain, because I have real capital applied towards what I do, not play money. I'm not raising a hobby herd.

 

[True Grit Farms]

You just have a way of saying things that seem to disrespect folks. Personally I just don't care to be disrespected over the Internet. Face to face I'm fine with anything that goes.
A lot of folks that have deep pockets and invested big money in Angus have made an impact in the Angus breed. Hopefully you'll do well and make your mark in the Angus breed as well. Personally I'm breeding most my stuff to GAR genetics and selling beef instead of bull.

 

[CreekAngus]

Bright Raven: Funny thing you referenced the ASA, because when these shenanigans first came down, the first complaint I heard was that the AAA was heading towards the ASA, especially with the single value valuation ($C). Honestly I don't see the breed going anywhere, folks will continue to breed and raise Angus, no other breed has the marketing power. And I've known this for years, this breed is ran by the Semen Catalogs (the pursuit of selling semen), it's just that simple. I will continue to breed as I planned and end up with bottom 5% $M cattle and wonder why my teenage ladies won't follow the numbers and just break down.

 

[Bright Raven]

Bright Raven: Funny thing you referenced the ASA, because when these shenanigans first came down, the first complaint I heard was that the AAA was heading towards the ASA, especially with the single value valuation ($C). Honestly I don't see the breed going anywhere, folks will continue to breed and raise Angus, no other breed has the marketing power. And I've known this for years, this breed is ran by the Semen Catalogs (the pursuit of selling semen), it's just that simple. I will continue to breed as I planned and end up with bottom 5% $M cattle and wonder why my teenage ladies won't follow the numbers and just break down.

The ASA geneticist said the updated AAA EPD model is the state of the art. Expect the other Associations to follow AAA.

 

[CreekAngus]

Branded: Are you saying that because I have a hobby herd I'm less relevant? What is the amount of pairs one should have to have legitimate voice, is it 50, 100, 300 or higher. The beauty of this breed is it doesn't matter how you're doing it you're legit. I may only run a micro herd, but I could have ownership interest in a AI stud, would that make me more relevant than you? And wouldn't that allow me to have great concern if stacking new EPD's effect my bull, especially if it put him in the ditch? I'm not saying your not relevant, because you are, you have a voice, as we all have heard....but you can tell the industry what bull just doesn't do anything for you and how the AAA is positively or negatively affecting your herd. It's ok for us to have concern, to debate, have conversation, but you are far too quick to pull the trigger and turn discussion into battle.

 

[CreekAngus]

Bright Raven: Funny thing you referenced the ASA, because when these shenanigans first came down, the first complaint I heard was that the AAA was heading towards the ASA, especially with the single value valuation ($C). Honestly I don't see the breed going anywhere, folks will continue to breed and raise Angus, no other breed has the marketing power. And I've known this for years, this breed is ran by the Semen Catalogs (the pursuit of selling semen), it's just that simple. I will continue to breed as I planned and end up with bottom 5% $M cattle and wonder why my teenage ladies won't follow the numbers and just break down.

The ASA geneticist said the updated AAA EPD model is the state of the art. Expect the other Associations to follow AAA.

How does the ASA account for the $M having almost no real data for Maternal? All the AAA is doing is regurgitating growth data back into a value. I will say this about the AAA and the data, they nailed $B and I have no understanding as to why they revalued it. $B was truly working for what it meant for, the fact breeders were going to hard in that direction, shouldn't be an issue with the AAA. Those of not wanting terminal, can pivot on our own without the breed trying to manipulate the breeders. My hope is that in the future, we will see the AAA adapt the $M to look more like the STAY in the RAAA. I love this breed and one of the reasons I went with it was because of the data, information and availability.