Angus Question: Daughters

[Foxx]

Nobody seems to be able to answer this so far, not even the Angus Assn.

I want to find a bull or bulls who produce great daughters so that I can breed them to my three older cows that I just purchased. Nobody seems to be able to tell me, and the Angus Assn person I talked to said it would have to be by word of mouth.

I know that Bushwacker is one who has great daughters, and also that Right Time is another. What other Angus bulls produce really great daughters?

How would I go about finding out which bulls produce great daughters and which produce great sons? Is there anything but word of mouth that I can find?

 

[Scotty]

GAR Pinnacle throws some good daughters. Big ribbed, lots of capasity. Plus the carcass traits you would like. EXT is a good one.


Scotty

 

[jscunn]

Mtn man taught me this : Depends on what you want. It is like every other breeding decision, the strengths and weaknesses of your cow herd. Example:
your cows need an udder improver (teat size, etc.) EXT
You have plenty of forage and feed for your cows and just want more milk - Neutron.
And so on and so forth.
Personally we are really happy with our Neutron granddaughters out of a Sleep Easy cow. (2 high milk number bulls) High milk cows are higher maintenance cows. Feel free to pm me and I will tell you more of my opinions.

By the way this is a very opinionated question and response, this could stir the pot around here just be ready for it.

 

[Larry Sansom]

$EN epd figure gives you an estimate of Savings on maintenance energy requirement - so the larger the number the better you will be on the highest variable on profit in the cattle industry - Feed Cost. If you are breeding for replacement heifers - that figure should be top consideration. Other requirements that your cows need should also be considered as has already been suggested. Again - Depends on what you want - but since most want profit - consider your cost as well as you gross in the cattle business. High growth is nice - but it does not come free, you often have to feed extra feed, creep feed or extra cow feed if your are to realize the extra growth. It is "Net" income not gross income. This board has every opinion out there from bucking bulls to show bulls to forage efficient cattle - so your responses to this question will also be a wide area.

 

[Jake]

alot of it depends on your forage base.

If your a mostly grass run operation I'd go with an Emblazon son or 6807 lineages. This will give you easy fleshing wonderfully uddered feminine females.

If your wanting to add length use EXT lineages (such as Right Time) You'll have nice uddered, moderate framed, great females.

These are the two most prominent "heifer maker" lines out there. I'd stay away from Bando, Bushwacker has nice females but I've never been as fond of them as those of EXT or 6807 descent. I'd strongly suggest using Conealy Dateline, or VRD, or even 7270 (this bull is a Wild Color Trait Carrier). Dateline cattle are easy fleshing, growthy, moderately framed, and nicely uddered with overal good maternal traits.

 

[Foxx]

Thanks for forcing me to think about this. It is hard when you are a beginner and don't know what you need to think about. :roll: Here's what I have:

LA Eraline 22
Backstop daughter
BW 4.2 WW 42 YW 43 Milk 13
Large cow
Would like to lower BW raise YW and lower MH
Probably Right Time

Traylors RL Royal Lady 843
Bando breeding
BW 3.0 WW 35 YW 60 Milk 18
Large cow
Would like to lower BW raise YW and lower MH
Thinking I might go with 036

VAR Forever Lass 8002
RightTime daughter
BW 3.9 WW 31 YW 54 Milk 11
smaller boned cow
Would like to lower BW raise YW and get more bulk
Thinking I might go with BR Midland or Bushwacker

If I had my choice, I'd have cows that had lower MH and better fleshing. I'd lower BW on all of my cows.

I have grass hay that I am feeding now. However, we will be feeding alfalfa to them down the road since that will likely be all we can get. This being said, I really would prefer that they fleshed really good. I'd have to feed less alfalfa, and they could get by on grass hay that way.

However, all this being said, I really want to get a bull who produces daughters that produce. Some bulls just have daughters. Some bulls have daughters that consistently produce nice babies and are worth having. That second one is the set of bulls that I want to look at for sires.

 

[Dee]

Jake, who is the 7270 bull you mentioned? As far as the "wild color gene" if bred to an Angus you could get red, roans, etc.???

 

[Aero]

Foxx:
post this question on the ACS message board and i guarantee you will get some interesting responses.

http://www.advantagecattle.com/forum/default.asp

 

[Frankie]

Nobody seems to be able to answer this so far, not even the Angus Assn.

I want to find a bull or bulls who produce great daughters so that I can breed them to my three older cows that I just purchased. Nobody seems to be able to tell me, and the Angus Assn person I talked to said it would have to be by word of mouth.

I know that Bushwacker is one who has great daughters, and also that Right Time is another. What other Angus bulls produce really great daughters?

How would I go about finding out which bulls produce great daughters and which produce great sons? Is there anything but word of mouth that I can find?

Word of mouth is your best bet and local word of mouth at that. What makes a "great" cow will vary from region to region, managment to management.

The Angus Assn does recognize superior cows with "Pathfinder" status. And they recognize bulls that produce "Pathfinder" cows as being "Pathfinder" bulls. There might be a list of Pathfinder bulls on the Angus site, though I've never looked for one. Be warned that it's a very long list.

 

[Frankie]

Thanks for forcing me to think about this. It is hard when you are a beginner and don't know what you need to think about. :roll: Here's what I have:

LA Eraline 22
Backstop daughter
BW 4.2 WW 42 YW 43 Milk 13
Large cow
Would like to lower BW raise YW and lower MH
Probably Right Time

IMO, it's hard to go wrong with Right Time for daughters. But we do have a couple of larger framed Right Time daughters. Great dispositions, fertile, raise good calves.

Traylors RL Royal Lady 843
Bando breeding
BW 3.0 WW 35 YW 60 Milk 18
Large cow
Would like to lower BW raise YW and lower MH
Thinking I might go with 036

"Bando breeding" is a wide category. As much as I like the 036 bull, he won't help with frame. It's been a real surprise to me that 878 (an 036 son) has taken frame away. And he might produce thicker cattle than 036.

VAR Forever Lass 8002
RightTime daughter
BW 3.9 WW 31 YW 54 Milk 11
smaller boned cow
Would like to lower BW raise YW and get more bulk
Thinking I might go with BR Midland or Bushwacker

Of those two, I'd go with Midland.

If I had my choice, I'd have cows that had lower MH and better fleshing. I'd lower BW on all of my cows.

I have grass hay that I am feeding now. However, we will be feeding alfalfa to them down the road since that will likely be all we can get. This being said, I really would prefer that they fleshed really good. I'd have to feed less alfalfa, and they could get by on grass hay that way.

However, all this being said, I really want to get a bull who produces daughters that produce. Some bulls just have daughters. Some bulls have daughters that consistently produce nice babies and are worth having. That second one is the set of bulls that I want to look at for sires.

Angus is a maternal breed. If you avoid bulls with extreme WWs and YWs, you will probably get satisfactory cows. Watch the milk EPD, too. Too much milk can affect a cow's ability to breed back. Good luck...

 

[Foxx]

Yes, I have looked at Pathfinders. However, can't a Pathfinder be made? Just thinking on paper, but if I had ten cow herds of 10 cows each, I could put a cow in the lowest herd who was only 10% of the best cow. And she could become a pathfinder.

Or can't Pathfinders be lost? I could put a Pathfinder cow in a herd of eight, and she could be one of the best cows in the nation. But nobody would ever know of her. Can only the bigger breeders with separation of herds have PathfinderS?

I don't know about all of you, but I come from a background of showing other types of animals. I find that some people just lie about what they have. When you go to their animals, they produce nothing like what you expect. Of course, now you have a year into them, and you have offspring that you dislike and have a choice to keep it (for your side of the good genetics) or toss it along with a year of your breedings (very costly in my view) to get it gone. And this experience has made me less than trusting.

I do find the cattle folks refreshing. But are they never liars?

 

[Frankie]

Yes, I have looked at Pathfinders. However, can't a Pathfinder be made? Just thinking on paper, but if I had ten cow herds of 10 cows each, I could put a cow in the lowest herd who was only 10% of the best cow. And she could become a pathfinder.

Yes, you can cheat and make a Patfinder cow. But it would be harder to make a Pathfinder bull.

Or can't Pathfinders be lost? I could put a Pathfinder cow in a herd of eight, and she could be one of the best cows in the nation. But nobody would ever know of her. Can only the bigger breeders with separation of herds have PathfinderS?

Yes, we have several cows that I believe would have made Pathfinder status if we had managed our contemporary groups better. If you only run ten cows and keep then in a 90 day calving season, you can produce a Pathfinder cow.

I don't know about all of you, but I come from a background of showing other types of animals. I find that some people just lie about what they have. When you go to their animals, they produce nothing like what you expect. Of course, now you have a year into them, and you have offspring that you dislike and have a choice to keep it (for your side of the good genetics) or toss it along with a year of your breedings (very costly in my view) to get it gone. And this experience has made me less than trusting.

I'll not point any fingers at Angus breeders anywhere, but we generally don't use bulls until their accuracies are above .85. The Angus Assn holds accuracies to .85 until the bull is widely used in several herds. That's to make it harder for someone to promote their bull by only reporting calves that reflect well on him. As a personal thing, we don't generally use show bulls.

I do find the cattle folks refreshing. But are they never liars?

Of course there are liars and cheats in the cattle business, both commercial and purebred. No bull is perfect, but it's up to you to use the tools avilable to you and not get suckered into using bulls being promoted by people who don't have the beed's best interest at heart or just don't know any better.

 

[C HOLLAND]

My choice for females would be GAR Expectation 4915 # 12548568 or BAR Ext Travler 205 # 12452829

 

[la4angus]

My choice for an Angus bull that produces more great daughters on a consistent basis is N Bar Emulation EXT.

 

[Foxx]

Holland: 12452829 Looks good. Could use a little SC. Do his daughters calve late? Nice BW to YW. How many daughters have you seen, and what do you like best about them?

12452829 Looks good. Could use more SC. Do daughters calve late? Nice MH (which I need). Little nervous about 6807 because I heard daughters have sticking problems. What do you know about this? What do you like best about his daughters?

Scotty: I do like GAR Pinnacle, but I really need BW to go down. ;-) And I have heard that 9J9 had serious semen issues, and 1680 has daughters that won't stick. I'm all new to this, so I could be way wrong. (Wondering if 2536 won't stick--but those numbers sure impress me on Rito 2V1!)

Frankie why would you go with Midland over Bushwacker? :?: I thought Bushwacker produced great daughters from what I heard???? And what do you consider too much milk? I see many, many bulls with 35. I think that seems very, very high since the Angus Assn tells us that 9 will do in most cases.

Jake: You say use an Emblazon son. Which son would that be? I like Emblazon. I am seriously considering OCC bulls. I really like what they say about fleshing. I want that in my cows!

 

[Scotty]

I baught some 1I2 daughters and they are great disposition. They themselves have good data. no calves yet. I have a Rito 707 of Ideal(maternal grand is DHD Traveler 6807) daughter that really raised a great calve this year. 751lbs at 211 days. This will not help your BW issue though.


Scotty

 

[aplusmnt]

Isn't Northern Impovement a good sire for females?

 

[Anonymous]

Sitz Traveler 8180 makes beautiful daughters. Ext's can be a little flighty (or maybe I should say nervous).

 

[Foxx]

Scotty: Did your 707 daughter breed back? Sounds like a really nice calf!