Angus $EN/DMI

[Air gator]

Just wondering how much attention do you pay to $EN and DMI? When I looked at DMI it seemed that there were a lot of bulls that were good for DMI and bad for $EN and I wasn't expecting that. I spoke to a cattle buyer and he didn't seem to care about either. They are interested in $B primarily. If you are building a herd I don't think you can only look at $B.
$EN is another matter. Where do you draw the line on $EN or what would you consider out of bounds for a $EN number?
Is there a sweet spot? I notice that even though Connealy Thunder and Hoover Dam both have milk epds of 24 they are positive for $EN. I am just wondering if $EN is more reliable now then the milk epd since the numbers changed.
Does anyone value DMI or is it only $EN? Thanks for your feedback.

 

[bse]

FWIW $EN means nothing to me, never even look at it. If was trying to run 100 cows on 50 acres maybe, but not convinced even that would make a difference to me.
DMI right now I don't look at it, I do believe it will play a part in the future for bull selection, for commercial guys, but no matter its still a by the pound business, unless your retaining and trying to get them to grade.
If a bull buyer came here and I said look at the $EN or DMI on this animal, they would look at me like I was crazy, but if I say look at the YW or WW they know.

 

[Angus Rocks]

$EN is something I look at a lot the other guy posted that they look at ww and yw that may be what most people are looking for but if it cost me to much for the critter to get those weaning and yearling weights I cant afford it and there is lots of cattle around that have low ww and yw and perform very well anyway.

 

[Chocolate Cow2]

As a commercial producer, I look at $EN and milk. I want to see a positive $EN value. Bonsma said optimum milk for most environments is 13.5. I try to stay a little under that. The cows that form the nucleus of my herd all have a +$35.00 or higher on $EN. My cows weigh around 1100lbs.

I get criticized by registered breeders because of my comments on $EN and how most bull sale catalogs flaunt big numbers but ignore the $EN value because it doesn't fit the narrative.

A few years ago I was at an ABS meeting and Dr. Bob Weaber from K-State was the speaker. I asked him if he were to build a cow herd, what EPD's would he focus on. His answer was: $EN and $W.

$B is a terminal number that should be used if you are selecting a sire to produce calves ALL destined for the feedyard.

Thankfully-as cattle producers-we have the rite to select what we want. Mother Nature (and our banker) will eventually tell us if we chose wisely.

 

[Air gator]

ChocolateCow2,
There seem to be so many different views within the purebred Angus "family."
You have those who go strictly for marbling. You have others who go 100 percent with one
farm's bulls/bloodlines regardless of epds. Then you have others that go only with numbers.
Have I left anyone out?

I have a tendency to fall in love with a new bull every few months.
The problem is I either don't have the right cow to breed to them or I don't have enough cows to breed to them.
You are right about $EN. I looked at DMI and it doesn't seem to have any impact at all on $EN and no one cares at all
about that. I called about one bull that looked promising and it turns out he's a 7 frame.
That's why I try to get feedback on experiences and animals on here. Living in Florida I am deprived of seeing
purebred Angus sales and the really big farms that produce AI bulls.....I haven't had a chance to visit Gizmom but she lives in a part of Florida known as Southern Alabama since it's so close to the state line.
I think I've seen somewhere that Mother Nature doesn't like extremes. I think you have to consider the cost of growth and decide whether the cost is worth it.

 

[Ebenezer]

$EN is an index type conglomerate figure. Two animals with the same $EN number could be complete opposites: one low growth and higher milk and one higher growth and lower milk. You will never please all or most Angus breeders with your choice of cattle or your choice of $EN. The pleasure of good Angus cattle or any good cattle is in learning how to breed them to make the most functional and environmental fit animals you can have in your herd, fine tune it and then make all of your cattle to be just that. So much of Angus hoopla is about the one great animal or the one new great potential animal. The happiest of Angus breeders are the ones who set a goal, breed for it and can go out in their pasture and see useful cattle that when sold to others help to create more useful cattle. Otherwise it is merely the question: "What level of promotion can you afford?" Home spun or high tech doesn't matter, low cost or high dollar - it is still promotion if your cattle are sold because of words and not because of ability.

 

[Stocker Steve]

As a commercial producer, I look at $EN and milk. I want to see a positive $EN value. Bonsma said optimum milk for most environments is 13.5. I try to stay a little under that. The cows that form the nucleus of my herd all have a +$35.00 or higher on $EN. My cows weigh around 1100lbs.

I get criticized by registered breeders because of my comments on $EN and how most bull sale catalogs flaunt big numbers but ignore the $EN value because it doesn't fit the narrative.

A few years ago I was at an ABS meeting and Dr. Bob Weaber from K-State was the speaker. I asked him if he were to build a cow herd, what EPD's would he focus on. His answer was: $EN and $W.

$B is a terminal number that should be used if you are selecting a sire to produce calves ALL destined for the feedyard.

Thankfully-as cattle producers-we have the rite to select what we want. Mother Nature (and our banker) will eventually tell us if we chose wisely.

I don't operate a feedlot. I won't use a bull unless $EN is positive. That eliminates most AI bulls. Then I look at shape/size/WW/docility...

 

[Air gator]

Stocker Steve,
The ones I can think of with positive $EN are Connealy Thunder, Hoover Dam, Coleman Charlo, Var Reserve, Absolute, Chisum 6175 and Connealy Consensus 7229. Who else am I missing?

A person might assume that they would be all low milk but they aren't. I thought I saw somewhere that some breeders thought that Chisum daughters had too much milk...Not sure if that is true.

I think you could do OK with those.

 

[frieghttrain]

Stocker Steve,
The ones I can think of with positive $EN are Connealy Thunder, Hoover Dam, Coleman Charlo, Var Reserve, Absolute, Chisum 6175 and Connealy Consensus 7229. Who else am I missing?

A person might assume that they would be all low milk but they aren't. I thought I saw somewhere that some breeders thought that Chisum daughters had too much milk...Not sure if that is true.

I think you could do OK with those.

Connealy legendary, Connealy Comrade, Deer Valley Fox Trot, Coleman Regis, Sat Revival,GDAR Heisman, Tc Thunder, Carter Blackfoot, Coleman Venture, Connealy Conviction, Connealy Capitalist, Connealy Combination, S Summit, Connealy Mentor, Sitz Wisdom, Sav Registry all from Select Sires (didn't look at others) granted some of these are very young bulls and will change and some are barely +. Lot of Connealy bulls in there..

 

[Tbrake]

One thing I have noticed, sure everyone else has too. A lot of the bulls known for making good females have a positive, or very close to EN. Lately I've been $EN a lot more when selecting bulls. Whether or not it makes and difference to your bottom line, I have not a clue.

 

[Ebenezer]

One thing I have noticed, sure everyone else has too. A lot of the bulls known for making good females have a positive, or very close to EN. Lately I've been $EN a lot more when selecting bulls. Whether or not it makes and difference to your bottom line, I have not a clue.

A word of caution: Single-trait
selecting for $EN would tend to
identify animals with low milk and
smaller mature size, but with no
indication of progeny performance
levels. Very rarely is single-trait
selection effective in a system-based
breeding program.

Expressed in dollars savings per
cow per year, $EN assesses differences
in cow energy requirements as an
expected dollar savings difference
in daughters of sires. A larger value
indicates more dollars saved on feed
energy expenses and, therefore, is
more favorable when comparing two
animals. Components for computing
the cow $EN savings difference
include lactation energy requirements
and energy costs associated with
differences in mature cow size

http://www.angusbeefbulletin.com/articlePDF/By the numbers 01_09 ABB.pdf

Just need to decide if more open cows = more profit at the end of the year, if small calves lose more money or if there is a middle ground between mature size and associated milk levels.

And isn't it heresy to question EPDs? :lol2:

 

[Air gator]

I believe in the idea of $EN. I just don't believe the numbers actually translate to dollars.
So, if you have a cow with a $EN of -21...I think she costs you more than $21 extra a year.
If you paid $300 a ton for cow feed that's 15 cents a pound. A cow that is in the top one percent with a milk epd of 39 only eats 3 pounds a week more than an average cow? That's less than 7 ounces a day difference.
I think she costs you a lot more than that. I think you can look at $EN and identify extremes but I wouldn't want to order feed based on $EN.

 

[Son of Butch]

Cow feed at $300 ton.... I think you would have a tough row to hoe turning a profit.

$300 ton or 15 cents pound x 56 lbs = $8.40 bushel corn
800 lb bale of hay @ $300 ton = $120 per bale or as the southern guys say... $120 per roll
1200 lb cow eating 30 lbs day at 15 cents = $4.50 day x 365 = $1643 year

Doesn't your pasture produce feed for less than 15 cents a pound?


AAA lists 100 sires with positive $EN

 

[Ebenezer]

And doesn't milk production take more feed than the mature weight in the equation?

I am not sure that the number is real but more of an indicator like a fuel gauge on a car: near full or near empty.

 

[Air gator]

I wouldn't know how to quantify the cost of one individual cow grazing in the pasture and I don't weigh my hay so I couldn't get you a price on that one either. Cow feed in Florida seems to be more expensive than other places.
It's $294.98 for "regular" cow feed. If you want something with a little more fat the show feed is $316.
A ton of corn is $249.78. The last time I bought Dried Distillers Grain it was $295.
All of this is for feed in bags.

 

[u4411clb]

I definitely take $EN into consideration if I am choosing a bull that I will keep heifers from. I think it is actually more valuable than ww. The reason I say that is for approx 25 years in good years meaning plenty of grass and good weather our steers wean at 650 and heifers 600 and bad years steers 550 and heifers 500. This is with bulls years ago whose ww epd's are now in the 20's and lately with bulls with ww epd's above 65. Our weaning weights since we embraced epd's have not changed much. But cows with high $EN numbers keep condition better and breed back faster so their offspring have stayed in the herd longer and make up a bigger part of the herd as we only keep heifers born in first part of calving season.

Plus I choose milk epd's in the middle to lower end because I have found as long as a cow has all 4 teats working the amount of milk is not an issue for me. So structure of their bag is more important than milk epd's. But this is only 1 guys opinion.

 

[u4411clb]

In Hereford Bulls I looked for as many Dams of Distinction in the pedigree as possible with also decent growth numbers.