Angus Bulls

[DOC HARRIS]

Valerie-

If you peruse my answer carefully, you will determine that I did NOT say the progeny should be "shorter"!! I suggested that they were too BIG! The on-going contentious argumentation concerning "size" of seedstock, NOT Terminal feedlot cattle, is a result of producers, breeders, ranchers, farmers, - even consumers not understanding the Management Intricacies of all protocols involved in the realization of achieving a PROFIT in the BU$INE$$ of Cattle production! Too much information is available and attainable on this subject than for me to attempt to go into the proven FACTS surrounding the subject on this thread! "SIZE" certainly relates to factors more cogent to PROFIT than how "short" a bull's progeny may result in being!

By the way, while we are on the interesting subject of "Ole Boomer" and DeerValley Retail Grit S6125 (and others of that ilk), I would like to remind all who may be interested that G A R Retail Product, et al, was sired by G A R Precision 1680, whose maternal grandsire was 9J9. This is the proven progenators (precursors) of Arthrogryposis Multiplex (AM) (or Curly Calf Syndrome), which lethal genetic defect tore through the Angus breed a little over two years ago, and which created a panicked reaction among breeders - resulting in the elimination of many otherwise excellent breeding individuals from many Angus herds. As a result, Technology and an aggressive, transparent discovery process, and DNA test for AM now will allow producers to identify noncarriers within the affected line of cattle and use them without fear of propagating the recessive gene. It is crucial that breeders be aware of the potential dangers lurking in the genetics of their breeding and mating selections!

DOC HARRIS

 

[pdfangus]

iF YOU HAVE ANOTHER BULL AS GOOD AS BOOMER WHY NOT JUST CROSS THEM.
USE THE BEST SONS AND BACK CROSS.

 

[RD-Sam]

Valerie-

If you peruse my answer carefully, you will determine that I did NOT say the progeny should be "shorter"!! I suggested that they were too BIG! The on-going contentious argumentation concerning "size" of seedstock, NOT Terminal feedlot cattle, is a result of producers, breeders, ranchers, farmers, - even consumers not understanding the Management Intricacies of all protocols involved in the realization of achieving a PROFIT in the BU$INE$$ of Cattle production! Too much information is available and attainable on this subject than for me to attempt to go into the proven FACTS surrounding the subject on this thread! "SIZE" certainly relates to factors more cogent to PROFIT than how "short" a bull's progeny may result in being!

By the way, while we are on the interesting subject of "Ole Boomer" and DeerValley Retail Grit S6125 (and others of that ilk), I would like to remind all who may be interested that G A R Retail Product, et al, was sired by G A R Precision 1680, whose maternal grandsire was 9J9. This is the proven progenators (precursors) of Arthrogryposis Multiplex (AM) (or Curly Calf Syndrome), which lethal genetic defect tore through the Angus breed a little over two years ago, and which created a panicked reaction among breeders - resulting in the elimination of many otherwise excellent breeding individuals from many Angus herds. As a result, Technology and an aggressive, transparent discovery process, and DNA test for AM now will allow producers to identify noncarriers within the affected line of cattle and use them without fear of propagating the recessive gene. It is crucial that breeders be aware of the potential dangers lurking in the genetics of their breeding and mating selections!

DOC HARRIS

Doc, not sure if you know or not, but Retail Product was cleared of all the defects, even the latest double muscling defect.

According to Knersie, his(RP) topline is terrible, which I already knew, but used him anyway, he produces really nice females. My bull out of him is looking great too.

There aren't any perfect bulls that I have found so far, but if Boomer produces offspring as good as he is, I'd say that would be getting close.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

How old is Ole Boomer?

 

[vclavin]

Valerie-

If you peruse my answer carefully, you will determine that I did NOT say the progeny should be "shorter"!! I suggested that they were too BIG! The on-going contentious argumentation concerning "size" of seedstock, NOT Terminal feedlot cattle, is a result of producers, breeders, ranchers, farmers, - even consumers not understanding the Management Intricacies of all protocols involved in the realization of achieving a PROFIT in the BU$INE$$ of Cattle production! Too much information is available and attainable on this subject than for me to attempt to go into the proven FACTS surrounding the subject on this thread! "SIZE" certainly relates to factors more cogent to PROFIT than how "short" a bull's progeny may result in being!

By the way, while we are on the interesting subject of "Ole Boomer" and DeerValley Retail Grit S6125 (and others of that ilk), I would like to remind all who may be interested that G A R Retail Product, et al, was sired by G A R Precision 1680, whose maternal grandsire was 9J9. This is the proven progenators (precursors) of Arthrogryposis Multiplex (AM) (or Curly Calf Syndrome), which lethal genetic defect tore through the Angus breed a little over two years ago, and which created a panicked reaction among breeders - resulting in the elimination of many otherwise excellent breeding individuals from many Angus herds. As a result, Technology and an aggressive, transparent discovery process, and DNA test for AM now will allow producers to identify noncarriers within the affected line of cattle and use them without fear of propagating the recessive gene. It is crucial that breeders be aware of the potential dangers lurking in the genetics of their breeding and mating selections!

DOC HARRIS

A little confused then, you were talking frame score and frame score is based on height.
Please explain .
Valerie

 

[Chuckie]

Boomer is a 7 year old, Tennessee Tuxedo and also is a 7 frame.
He has a tendency to throw more bulls than he did heifers. I brought the heifers I liked best over to the house, and my best two cowss to start my little genetic project.

The commercial cattle and the other registered cattle are at the other farm.

My best cow, 333 (no relation to Boomer) had a heifer out of another bull when I purchased her, then after that, it was bulls. Then when I brought her home with me, she had another heifer.

Pdfangus, my plans are to bring Boomer's last yearling bull calf, that is out of the 333 cow home this weekend. I can share him with my son-in-law if I have to water down the pool a bit before I use him. If I don't bring him home, he will disappear just like Boomer did.

Grit, the Retail Product bull, Doc, is not as tall as the other bull. He is over 5.5 frame, but not over 6. He is the one that I have been concerned about having the scours. I do not want to lose my heifers or him either.
We bought Grit to pull Boomer's numbers up. His numbers were good enough to pull Boomers up to above average on RE and Marb. The rest of Boomer' are good.

I will start another post and show the bull that I have been writing so much about with the scours, and the tests I have been running on him. I will add the heifers out of Boomer that I brought to the house.
Chuckie

 

[vclavin]

Boomer is a 7 year old, Tennessee Tuxedo and also is a 7 frame.
He has a tendency to throw more bulls than he did heifers. I brought the heifers I liked best over to the house, and my best two cowss to start my little genetic project.

The commercial cattle and the other registered cattle are at the other farm.

My best cow, 333 (no relation to Boomer) had a heifer out of another bull when I purchased her, then after that, it was bulls. Then when I brought her home with me, she had another heifer.

Pdfangus, my plans are to bring Boomer's last yearling bull calf, that is out of the 333 cow home this weekend. I can share him with my son-in-law if I have to water down the pool a bit before I use him. If I don't bring him home, he will disappear just like Boomer did.

Grit, the Retail Product bull, Doc, is not as tall as the other bull. He is over 5.5 frame, but not over 6. He is the one that I have been concerned about having the scours. I do not want to lose my heifers or him either.
We bought Grit to pull Boomer's numbers up. His numbers were good enough to pull Boomers up to above average on RE and Marb. The rest of Boomer' are good.

I will start another post and show the bull that I have been writing so much about with the scours, and the tests I have been running on him. I will add the heifers out of Boomer that I brought to the house.
Chuckie

Do you ultrasound or run DNA testing Chuckie?
Valerie

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Valerie-

If you peruse my answer carefully, you will determine that I did NOT say the progeny should be "shorter"!! I suggested that they were too BIG! The on-going contentious argumentation concerning "size" of seedstock, NOT Terminal feedlot cattle, is a result of producers, breeders, ranchers, farmers, - even consumers not understanding the Management Intricacies of all protocols involved in the realization of achieving a PROFIT in the BU$INE$$ of Cattle production! Too much information is available and attainable on this subject than for me to attempt to go into the proven FACTS surrounding the subject on this thread! "SIZE" certainly relates to factors more cogent to PROFIT than how "short" a bull's progeny may result in being!

By the way, while we are on the interesting subject of "Ole Boomer" and DeerValley Retail Grit S6125 (and others of that ilk), I would like to remind all who may be interested that G A R Retail Product, et al, was sired by G A R Precision 1680, whose maternal grandsire was 9J9. This is the proven progenators (precursors) of Arthrogryposis Multiplex (AM) (or Curly Calf Syndrome), which lethal genetic defect tore through the Angus breed a little over two years ago, and which created a panicked reaction among breeders - resulting in the elimination of many otherwise excellent breeding individuals from many Angus herds. As a result, Technology and an aggressive, transparent discovery process, and DNA test for AM now will allow producers to identify noncarriers within the affected line of cattle and use them without fear of propagating the recessive gene. It is crucial that breeders be aware of the potential dangers lurking in the genetics of their breeding and mating selections!

DOC HARRIS

A little confused then, you were talking frame score and frame score is based on height.
Please explain .
Valerie

Valerie-

I have no intention of engaging in a war of rhetorical words with you over a subject that we both understand very well! (Or at least you should understand it with the operation that you have).

EXPLANATION:

SMALLER cows are more PROFITABLE than big cows!

BIG bulls produce BIG cows.
BIG cows cost more to feed and pasture.
BIG cows produce BIG calves, causing large calf production costs.
BIG cows, 1400 lbs +, cost relatively MORE to feed than 1150 lb cows (Particularly now with feed costs, and pasture expenses, and everything else necessary for optimal management and proper protocols being considered) - and you certainly DO have to consider all factors for anticipating profit.

If you have a cow herd of LARGE cows and breed them to LARGE bulls you will have LARGE production costs. But you won't have (relatively speaking) LARGE profits.

But it is your option to manage your operation in any way that you wish.

'Nuff said!

DOC HARRIS

 

[Chuckie]

Valerie, at this point I do not ultrasound. I am not sure where I would have to go to have it done. At this point, I am going by what ultrasound numbers are being taken by the bulls and cows when we have purchased them.


That is definitely a good thing to look into if I am going to get serious about this. Even though I have only brought a handfull of cows over to do this, it would be great to see where they are and the offspring are too.

The DNA testing, I have not considered doing that either. I have only sold Bulls from the registered herd, and no one has asked for a DNA test.
Are you asking concerning the genetic defects that Doc talked about? Can this be found in a hair sample?

Does anyone know where ultrasound can be done close to Jackson TN? What does it usually cost per animal?
Chuckie

 

[vclavin]

Valerie-

If you peruse my answer carefully, you will determine that I did NOT say the progeny should be "shorter"!! I suggested that they were too BIG! The on-going contentious argumentation concerning "size" of seedstock, NOT Terminal feedlot cattle, is a result of producers, breeders, ranchers, farmers, - even consumers not understanding the Management Intricacies of all protocols involved in the realization of achieving a PROFIT in the BU$INE$$ of Cattle production! Too much information is available and attainable on this subject than for me to attempt to go into the proven FACTS surrounding the subject on this thread! "SIZE" certainly relates to factors more cogent to PROFIT than how "short" a bull's progeny may result in being!

By the way, while we are on the interesting subject of "Ole Boomer" and DeerValley Retail Grit S6125 (and others of that ilk), I would like to remind all who may be interested that G A R Retail Product, et al, was sired by G A R Precision 1680, whose maternal grandsire was 9J9. This is the proven progenators (precursors) of Arthrogryposis Multiplex (AM) (or Curly Calf Syndrome), which lethal genetic defect tore through the Angus breed a little over two years ago, and which created a panicked reaction among breeders - resulting in the elimination of many otherwise excellent breeding individuals from many Angus herds. As a result, Technology and an aggressive, transparent discovery process, and DNA test for AM now will allow producers to identify noncarriers within the affected line of cattle and use them without fear of propagating the recessive gene. It is crucial that breeders be aware of the potential dangers lurking in the genetics of their breeding and mating selections!

DOC HARRIS

A little confused then, you were talking frame score and frame score is based on height.
Please explain .
Valerie

Valerie-

I have no intention of engaging in a war of rhetorical words with you over a subject that we both understand very well! (Or at least you should understand it with the operation that you have).

EXPLANATION:

SMALLER cows are more PROFITABLE than big cows!

BIG bulls produce BIG cows.
BIG cows cost more to feed and pasture.
BIG cows produce BIG calves, causing large calf production costs.
BIG cows, 1400 lbs +, cost relatively MORE to feed than 1150 lb cows (Particularly now with feed costs, and pasture expenses, and everything else necessary for optimal management and proper protocols being considered) - and you certainly DO have to consider all factors for anticipating profit.

If you have a cow herd of LARGE cows and breed them to LARGE bulls you will have LARGE production costs. But you won't have (relatively speaking) LARGE profits.

But it is your option to manage your operation in any way that you wish.

'Nuff said!

DOC HARRIS

I'm not disputing the big/small cow senario, just the mention of frame size you referred to and assumption of size due to using 7 frame bulls. I have 1550lb cows that are no where near 7 or even 6 frame. I conclude going by frame size is not always going to give you a particular "weight" cow. One must look at the whole picture not just frame! Thats all.
Valerie
PS Otherwise I agree with all said

 

[JustSimmental]

I am with Doc Harris on that deal--I can't imagine anyone this day and time intentionally using a FS 7+ bull. A FS 7+ bull will produce bigger cows (hay burners)---- more than likely, which won't pay the bills.

The Bull is phenotypically appealing in the photo, but genotypically with his GAR Precision background--- gives me pause----- I would stay away from anything and everything that goes back to Precision.

That is just begging for a heartache.

JS

 

[DOC HARRIS]

I am with Doc Harris on that deal--I can't imagine anyone this day and time intentionally using a FS 7+ bull. A FS 7+ bull will produce bigger cows (hay burners)---- more than likely, which won't pay the bills.

The Bull is phenotypically appealing in the photo, but genotypically with his GAR Precision background--- gives me pause----- I would stay away from anything and everything that goes back to Precision.

That is just begging for a heartache.

JS

JS-

:tiphat: :banana: :clap:

DOC HARRIS

 

[ALACOWMAN]

that just gives me even more reason to want use him now :lol:

 

[JustSimmental]

Well I imagine you need some Curly Calf Syndrome in your herd too--- have at it....
JS

that just gives me even more reason to want use him now :lol:

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Well I imagine you need some Curly Calf Syndrome in your herd too--- have at it....JS

that just gives me even more reason to want use him now :lol:

no what i need is two horn tooters like you two,, to tell me what i need :cowboy:

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Well I imagine you need some Curly Calf Syndrome in your herd too--- have at it....JS

that just gives me even more reason to want use him now :lol:

no what i need is two horn tooters like you two,, to tell me what i need :cowboy:

ALACOWMAN-

Glad to be of assistance to your profitable beef producing protocol planning! That is exactly what this Forum is all about - helping those who need enlightening. The manner in which you choose to exploit the information offered is your choice. The possible resulting consequences become a great source of learning experiences, from which everyone may benefit. :???:

DOC HARRIS

 

[ALACOWMAN]

that just gives me even more reason to want use him now :lol:

[/quote] no what i need is two horn tooters like you two,, to tell me what i need :cowboy:[/quote]

ALACOWMAN-

Glad to be of assistance to your profitable beef producing protocol planning! That is exactly what this Forum is all about - helping those who need enlightening. The manner in which you choose to exploit the information offered is your choice. The possible resulting consequences become a great source of learning experiences, from which everyone may benefit. :???:

DOC HARRIS[/quote] ... thanks doc, but ill be ok.. go and shine forth thy knowledge elsewhere
;-)

 

[JustSimmental]

Yes Sir-- cowman -- I am glad, as well, that I could assist you in your efforts in pioneering the "profitable beef producing protocol" .

JS

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Yes Sir-- cowman -- I am glad, as well, that I could assist you in your efforts in pioneering the "profitable beef producing protocol" .

JS

soundboard :lol:

 

[JustSimmental]

I am glad to see that a Bama cowman can have a sense of humor -- doesn't happen too often...
you must be an Auburn fan or Cam Newton enthusiast.... your grammar is just too good to be a BAMA fan.

JS