Angus Bulls

[DOC HARRIS]

Interesting subject matter that everyone SEEMS to be dancing around in seeking the "right" answer! Think about it: there is NEVER a "Right" answer to anything. There may be "Acceptable" answers, - there may be "Reasonable" answers, there may be "Tolerable", "Satisfactory" - even "Desirable" answers to a troublesome problem, but NOTHING is totally "RIGHT" for everyone. Now - why is that the case? Because Genetics works in it own inimitable way(S), and the trillions of possible combinations are NOT decipherable in their entirety. We can only anticipate "possibilities" of genetic occurrances, and it is a "Throw-of-the-Dice" guess at best.

HOWEVER (and isn't there always a HOWEVER hidden in the weeds somewhere?), we can minimize the negative's and optimize the positive's ( "Accent the Positive and E-lim-i-nate the Negative, and don't mess with Mister In-Between!") and filter out 93.846% of the obvious "850 Pound Gorilla in the Bedroom"! How do we approach that possiility? By changing the dance steps, and going back to the BASICS. Really learn what an "Allemande Left" is before you try to do a "Square Through and Load the Boat" ( this for you Square Dancers :lol: :lol2: :nod: :wave: )

In My Opinion, an acceptable option to the answer of "seeking" clean Genetics for your Angus breeding protocols would be to consider "Ohlde" breeding. There are many Angus herds around the country with Ohlde genetics and without "1680" in their background.

The ball is in your hands.

DOC HARRIS

 

[blackcowz]

Well, apparently there will be a CCS DNA marker test out. The doctors working on it have supposedly found the answer and will have some results turned out by the 3rd of November.

Begging everyone's pardon, this is a PRELIMINARY TEST!!!!! No guarntees and Dr. Beever doesn't believe the test is at an optimal and "fool proof" level.
Sorry for the misinformation!

 

[tom4018]

Interesting subject matter that everyone SEEMS to be dancing around in seeking the "right" answer! Think about it: there is NEVER a "Right" answer to anything. There may be "Acceptable" answers, - there may be "Reasonable" answers, there may be "Tolerable", "Satisfactory" - even "Desirable" answers to a troublesome problem, but NOTHING is totally "RIGHT" for everyone. Now - why is that the case? Because Genetics works in it own inimitable way(S), and the trillions of possible combinations are NOT decipherable in their entirety. We can only antIcipate "possibilities" of genetic occurrances, and it is a "Throw-of-the-Dice" guess at best.

HOWEVER (and isn't there always a HOWEVER hidden in the weeds somewhere?), we can minimize the negative's and optimize the positive's ( "Accent the Positive and E-lim-i-nate the Negative, and don't mess with Mister In-Between!") and filter out 93.846% of the obvious "850 Pound Gorilla in the Bedroom"! How do we approach that possiility? By changing the dance steps, and going back to the BASICS. Really learn what an "Allemande Left" is before you try to do a "Square Through and Load the Boat" ( this for you Square Dancers :lol: :lol2: :nod: :wave: )

In My Opinion, an acceptable option to the answer of "seeking" clean Genetics for your Angus breeding protocols would be to consider "Ohlde" breeding. There are many Angus herds around the country with Ohlde genetics and without "1680" in their background.

The ball is in your hands.

DOC HARRIS

How far back in a pedigree would a bull have to be for you to be concerned?
We are looking at a son of S S OBJECTIVE T510 0T26 13776378 which has the 9J9 bull back in there.

Do you like the Leachman Right Time line?

 

[RD-Sam]

Look at some of the B/R bulls. I second or third Predestined, but of course there is the possibility of the CCS problem with the 9J9 in his ped, of course I haven't heard that is an absolute yet.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

On numerous occasions during the "1680 Panic-prone" stampede, several of the contributors on this thread have cautioned everyone to calm down and not get carried away with "Chicken-Little Sky- Falling" predictions and what-ifs, - and - AGAIN I would second the motion that we all attempt to LEARN as much about the Curly Calf Syndrome gene as possible, before we throw up our pitchforks, and say that the End of The World has passed us by, and we have failed to get off of the boat!

There are many roadways and pathways that breeders may take in keeping their seedstock free of problems, including the CCS gene (IF that CCS gene IS a viable problem), if they decide that they wish to direct their seedstock selections along different lines. But to do so, without adequate, sufficient, and suitable foresight and knowledge, given the full and correct information encompassing the genetic FACTS of the CCS gene, is inadvisable at the very least. To be fully informed about ALL of the facts in making any decision is mandatory if one wishes to minimize making mistakes which could plague them in later years.

No one has the answers to these current and pertinent questions, and, therefore I would recommend that we all take another breath - and WAIT until more dependable information is published - information that is trustworthy, reliable and responsible. Going off half-cocked will result in the entire load blowing up in your face. I really don't think any one of us would relish that consequence occurring!

The fact that the Bovine Gestation Period is 283 days gives us plenty of time to plan a course of action to preclude making expensive and time-consuming errors in our seedstock planning. In the interim, continue to explore other possibilities in your management protocols.

DOC HARRIS

 

[RafterD]

GrtTiger:

I moved completely away from 1680 genetics a couple of years ago. Not because I knew anything but because I felt like there was a niche for outcross genetics that could have comparable EPD's with many of the high inbred Precision genetics that make up so much of the seedstock. Consequently, I am pretty familiar with most of the outcross genetics. One of the bulls that I think is really worth taking a hard look at is B/R Ambush 28. He is owned by 44 Farms and I get my semen from Angus Semen Service. He is a freak on his EPD being in top 1% of many categories with no 036 or 1680 bloodlines. We have used him extensively this year in our ET program and AI on our better cows. His certs are $50 which is pricey to me. We don't have any calves on the ground yet but I have seen some of his calves and really like them. The fact that he was bred by Bill Rishel which I consider one of the great breeders of all times doesn't hurt anything either. Another bull I really like is Conneally Forward but I am having a tough time getting any semen. By the way, I have some embryos out of a cow that stems from Leachman Blackcap ($165,000 sales price as an 8 year old) x B/R Ambush for sale if you might be interested. Another bull that is on the AMF list now is TC Total. He has some 1680 in him a ways back but apparently is not a carrier.

 

[RD-Sam]

On numerous occasions during the "1680 Panic-prone" stampede, several of the contributors on this thread have cautioned everyone to calm down and not get carried away with "Chicken-Little Sky- Falling" predictions and what-ifs, - and - AGAIN I would second the motion that we all attempt to LEARN as much about the Curly Calf Syndrome gene as possible, before we throw up our pitchforks, and say that the End of The World has passed us by, and we have failed to get off of the boat!

There are many roadways and pathways that breeders may take in keeping their seedstock free of problems, including the CCS gene (IF that CCS gene IS a viable problem), if they decide that they wish to direct their seedstock selections along different lines. But to do so, without adequate, sufficient, and suitable foresight and knowledge, given the full and correct information encompassing the genetic FACTS of the CCS gene, is inadvisable at the very least. To be fully informed about ALL of the facts in making any decision is mandatory if one wishes to minimize making mistakes which could plague them in later years.

No one has the answers to these current and pertinent questions, and, therefore I would recommend that we all take another breath - and WAIT until more dependable information is published - information that is trustworthy, reliable and responsible. Going off half-cocked will result in the entire load blowing up in your face. I really don't think any one of us would relish that consequence occurring!

The fact that the Bovine Gestation Period is 283 days gives us plenty of time to plan a course of action to preclude making expensive and time-consuming errors in our seedstock planning. In the interim, continue to explore other possibilities in your management protocols.

DOC HARRIS

Maybe the sky did fall for some? I am certainly glad I changed my mind about which direction to take and which lines to work with. Had I stayed with some of the ones you directed me towards and others from those lines, I would now have a tank full of worthless semen. :tiphat:

 

[RD-Sam]

GrtTiger:

I moved completely away from 1680 genetics a couple of years ago. Not because I knew anything but because I felt like there was a niche for outcross genetics that could have comparable EPD's with many of the high inbred Precision genetics that make up so much of the seedstock. Consequently, I am pretty familiar with most of the outcross genetics. One of the bulls that I think is really worth taking a hard look at is B/R Ambush 28. He is owned by 44 Farms and I get my semen from Angus Semen Service. He is a freak on his EPD being in top 1% of many categories with no 036 or 1680 bloodlines. We have used him extensively this year in our ET program and AI on our better cows. His certs are $50 which is pricey to me. We don't have any calves on the ground yet but I have seen some of his calves and really like them. The fact that he was bred by Bill Rishel which I consider one of the great breeders of all times doesn't hurt anything either. Another bull I really like is Conneally Forward but I am having a tough time getting any semen. By the way, I have some embryos out of a cow that stems from Leachman Blackcap ($165,000 sales price as an 8 year old) x B/R Ambush for sale if you might be interested. Another bull that is on the AMF list now is TC Total. He has some 1680 in him a ways back but apparently is not a carrier.

B/R Ambush 28 has B/R New Design 036 in the third generation of the dams side, for that reason, along with his phenotype and EPD's is the reason I elected to buy semen from him. Of course there are also others on the board that have used him with good success also. :banana:

 

[Frankie]

So all you guys out there that have cows to AI between now and the time a test comes out, what bulls are you going to use? Im having a hard time finding some that I like that dont have 1680 in their pedigree, and still have strong epd's. Most of my cows have 1680 on one side, so its hard finding a bull to AI to in the mean time, that still have the epd's im looking for. Some of the bulls that do fit the bill ive already been using(objective,Prime star, foresight, and a few others), so im looking for some more options, Just wondering what everyone else's situation is looking like and what yall plan on doing?

We won't be breeding anything for fall calving, so we should know more by spring. Right now we've got Lead On, Foresight, Midland (I hear he's been tested clean), PFred, and 036 in the tank.

 

[RafterD]

RD_Sam:

You are right. Ambush's granddam is a Ruby of Tiffany who was out of 036. Thanks for catching that. I do think he EPD's are freakishly good but I also agree with you that it is his phenotype and Bill Rishel's long term ability to breed great maternal traits in very nicely performing bulls that is the main reason why you should breed to him, not his EPD's. The EPD's are a bonus. In this area, it is hard for me to sell a good bull without mostly top 10% EPD's to my commercial customers. They understand them and understand how that they have positively affected their bottom line. However, it was the chase for excellent EPD's that has caused some of the excessive Precision breeding to begin with in my opinion. Precision has done a lot for the breed and I still like some bulls like Retail Product but with many of the new bulls including Future Direction, I was struggling with calves being pinched in the flank and their cows not easy fleshing as well as some disposition issues with some lines particularly related to Load Up.

I was looking over the preliminary list of carrier bulls today and it seems to me that many that I consider to not pass on great disposition are also carriers. I am sure that this is coincidental, but interesting none the less.

 

[RD-Sam]

Have you used B/R Future Direction 4268 yet? I was glad to see he is not a carrier.

 

[RafterD]

Have you used B/R Future Direction 4268 yet? I was glad to see he is not a carrier.

No I haven't used him only because we have pretty much been out of all Precision lines except for Retail Product for the past two years. One of my buddies who is heavily in to Precision has used him quite extensively and I certainly like the way those calves are put together at the hip and down through the flank as compared to CA Future Direction calves. In my opinion show just how important the dam side of the equation really is and definately increases my respect for the B/R prefix even more. I suspect in looking over all the FD sons that are free and that are carriers, it may be very well be 4268 that carries the torch for those genetics down the line.

I was glad to see Retail Product on the negative list. One of the traits we are trying to work back towards is getting frame size down while keeping the carcass quality and performance up. I have used RP quite a bit especially for a terminal cross kind of bull for my customers who feed their own steers but keep back hiefers in their herd. I really like how that commercial RP hiefers flesh and rebreed while adding some thickness and soggyness to the finished product.

Last spring, just before all this CCS information came out I flushed a Predestined virgin hiefer to GAR Game ON for the customers described above who needed to moderate frame size. I have quite of few of these embryos confirmed safe for spring calves. I was a little nervous when the list came out hoping that RP and Game On were free. Made my day when were marked AMF.

 

[RD-Sam]

That's good to know that 4268 is producing well, I really liked the type and the EPD on him, I bought semen right before the CCS thing came out. Now I just need to get far enough along to start using it, maybe in the spring if I buy a cow at one of these sales coming up.

I will be doing a breeding with Predestined real soon, hoping for a nice calf out of that.

I'm a firm believer it takes a good dam to produce a good calf as well, selecting on the sire alone probably won't get you anywhere except by dumb luck. ;-)

 

[Aero]

Pfred from ABS and 6I6 from Select Sires. Don;t know if 1680 is in their pedigree but on HerefordXRed Angus and Red Angus cows it doesn;t matter. I like their calves and they'v done really well for us

dun,
looking at the bulls he named, these 2 bulls (that would surely be a vast improvement in everything except numbers) are not on his realistic list.

 

[Aero]

many of the high inbred Precision genetics that make up so much of the seedstock.

now that is comical. what do you consider "high inbred"? 3%? 6%?

i have yet to see anyone linebreed anything 1680.

guess what; if they did with any consistency we wouldnt have this CCS mess.

 

[RD-Sam]

many of the high inbred Precision genetics that make up so much of the seedstock.

now that is comical. what do you consider "high inbred"? 3%? 6%?

i have yet to see anyone linebreed anything 1680.

guess what; if they did with any consistency we wouldnt have this CCS mess.

That's not so, I have seen plenty of line bred 1680 cattle. In fact there are probably some for sale this weekend at a sale near you! :lol2:

 

[Aero]

That's not so, I have seen plenty of line bred 1680 cattle. In fact there are probably some for sale this weekend at a sale near you! :lol2:

show me 3 animals that are more than 12% inbred to Precision and I will agree.

 

[RD-Sam]

That's not so, I have seen plenty of line bred 1680 cattle. In fact there are probably some for sale this weekend at a sale near you! :lol2:

sow me 3 animals that are more than 12% inbred to Precision and I will agree.

I've seen several in sales catalogs that would reach that percentage, drag em all out and go back through them. :nod: If my fuzzy logic math is right off the top of my head, all you would need is one in the first generation, and one in the second generation, or is that third generation? :compute:

 

[RafterD]

many of the high inbred Precision genetics that make up so much of the seedstock.

now that is comical. what do you consider "high inbred"? 3%? 6%?

i have yet to see anyone linebreed anything 1680.

guess what; if they did with any consistency we wouldnt have this CCS mess.

I am not sure that you have looked at a lot of the current Angus genetics. 2536 is by far the highest valued cow in the industry, at least before CCS. No telling how many embryos that she has produced and then her next generations. There were 63 bulls on the initial AMC list that by definition if this is a simple recessive gene are are linebred 1680. What I would consider high inbred is 12.5% which is just 1680 on boths sides of the pedigree going back three generations. I could take up many pages listing just bulls from bull studs that would qualify that criteria. If you don't believe me, just go look at Select Sires website. They have an excel chart of all the bulls and the probability that they are CCS carriers.

 

[RafterD]

I should clarify my last post. My point was that there are very few seedstock producers who don't have 1680 in at least some of their cows going back three generations. Since a high percentage of the bulls in current bull studs also have 1680 and many of those cows are being bred to those bulls, a large percentage of the seedstock being produced today is linebred 1680. I browsed through a recent sale catalog from a very reputable breeder and counted at least 20% of the offering that would be at least 6.25% linebred Precision. Several lots were as high as 25%. This is certainly not an uncommon occurrence in our industry today. Precision 1680 has had a tremendous impact on the breed and even with CCS, it is hard to argue that impact is still more positive than negative. But the prevalence of 1680 bloodlines has made it somewhat difficult to even find outcrosses. How many Future Direction daughters are out there that have been bred back to something like GAR Solution or Retail Product. That is just one example. Browse through sale books and you will most likely agree with me.