Angus Bulls for 2010

[Frankie]

I am having a hard time coming up with an instance where going back to 30 or 50 year old genetics has moved a breed or the industry foward. It is strictly a niche market.

Emulation 31 was "old" genetics until somebody decided to breed a son of his to a daughter of his and got EXT. Love him or hate him he was certainly a game changer and a lot of people made a lot of money off of him and his sibs. How many times was his mom flushed and cloned??? I got an email pushing Grassmaster today.

:roll: Take a look at EXT's EPDs and Wajima's EPDs. Even today EXT has "good" EPDs compared to breed average. He was never the perfect bull, especially his negative scrotal EPD, but he had qualities that made up for it. So far the only quality I've seen mentioned on the Wajima bull is that he looks good and has good $EN numbers, which go along with his low WW and YW EPDs. But everyone makes their choices for whatever reason. And I am very grateful for those big breeders who use young bulls to prove them, one way or another.

 

[AudieWyoming]

Since you are an "oldtimer" I know I don't have to remind you the genetic defects have always been there. I was in grade school in the "good old days" when my classmates would share stories about the dwarfs, retards, and two headed calves they knocked in the head and their dad told them not to tell anyone, so no one would know they had that gene in their cow herd. As far as the Precision bloodlines and the old Fulback sire whose name escapes me; What % of cattlemen in your circles actually used that light boned, no scrotal bloodline? I agree that defect was propagated by the champaigne crowd chasing the marbling ability these old angus were supposed to be noted for.

Far be it from me to tell you or anyone else what type of cattle you should raise, demand will dictate that over time. The British breeds replaced the native cattle, weather broke the no fence, no input cattle barons of the 1890s,cattle feeding and selection for performance cattle made the 350 lb weaned calf and the inefficient 3 year old first calf heifer obsolete. Times change, I'm just saying why not use all the tools available to slant the odds in your favor.
@

How much has the breed moved forward with all the genetic defects of the Future Directions and 1680's....How many of those will be in the pedigrees of years to come?.....
Just like many of the continentals were a fad- and didn't work in many areas- so did many of these high powered angus genetics that outperform the country they are being raised in- unless you throw in costly inputs...The reason for the return to those genetics that worked for years- and that show up for generations in some of the pedigrees....
Makes me laugh when folks say those cattle aren't any good for fertility- when they are the ones that show up for 10-20-30-40-50+ years in the history of most these maternal bloodlines- cows that came back year after year raising a calf without a creep feeder put in front of them....Especially when back then they were using cattle to profit off of and not for tax writeoffs and hobby investing.. I guess they just kept them around for their good looks ;-) :lol2:

 

[Frankie]

How much has the breed moved forward with all the genetic defects of the Future Directions and 1680's....How many of those will be in the pedigrees of years to come?.....
Just like many of the continentals were a fad- and didn't work in many areas- so did many of these high powered angus genetics that outperform the country they are being raised in- unless you throw in costly inputs...The reason for the return to those genetics that worked for years- and that show up for generations in some of the pedigrees....
Makes me laugh when folks say those cattle aren't any good for fertility- when they are the ones that show up for 10-20-30-40-50+ years in the history of most these maternal bloodlines- cows that came back year after year raising a calf without a creep feeder put in front of them....Especially when back then they were using cattle to profit off of and not for tax writeoffs and hobby investing.. I guess they just kept them around for their good looks ;-) :lol2:

We never used Future Direction and 1680 very little. But there are still many of their offspring that have been cleared of the genetic defects that can and will produce good cattle. To suggest otherwise is foolish, IMO.

It makes me laugh when someone claims these 30 year old bulls are the saviour of the Angus breed. We're in a different world these days as far as marketing and consumer demands than back in 1967 when 707 was born. Angus cattle didn't get where they are today because someone decided they needed to be bigger, faster gaining, more efficient. We're where we are because the market place demanded bigger, faster gaining, more efficient cattle.

Yes, those bulls were great in their time and I'm not putting them down. Given the opportunity, I'd drive a long way to see Traveler 23-4 and EXT, but I doubt I'd use 23-4 semen if someone gave it to me. He had his time; IMO, it's passed.

I'd guess it was one of those tax writeoff/hobby guys that paid big bucks for 707 semen. Those of us who actually think our cattle should be self supporting usually can't come up with that kind of $$$$.

 

[Oldtimer]

Audie- I'm aware there have always been genetic defects-but what I'm saying is that the 707's, EXT's, Wye, N Bars, many others of these older bloodlines have been crossed and recrossed and linebred-and used for years- and proven- and any defects either have or should have showed long ago- where when now you use the "bull of the month"- "bigger better faster" concoctions they seem to be showing up all over the place with just 3 major defects showing up in the last few years (with rumors of 1 or 2 more to come), which has cost the angus industry Millions $....

Could this proven factor be the reason for the resurrection of so many of these old bloodlines- and the reason some semen is selling for $5000...?

Some of us don't have the money to be buying bulls and cows or investing in bloodlines that next month have to pay to be tested and will be considered "genetic defects" either....

 

[Brandonm22]

I am certainly not comparing Wajima (whom I had barely heard of until this string) to EXT. I was just pointing out that EXT resulted from a rather bizare inbreeding experiment using older genetics. When everybody just goes along with the herd and uses what is popular at the moment, you end up with 5344 registered Precision daughters. SOMEBODY apparently liked him and there would be more if his semen had stayed cheap. Somebody needs to experiment or you end up with outcrossing 4 or 5 popular bloodlines over and over again. THAT said, if you do step outside of the herd you need to be honest enough with yourself to be able to admit when an experiment isn't working.

 

[Brandonm22]

Yes, those bulls were great in their time and I'm not putting them down. Given the opportunity, I'd drive a long way to see Traveler 23-4 and EXT, but I doubt I'd use 23-4 semen if someone gave it to me. He had his time; IMO, it's passed.

Frankie, you don't go back to an old proven bull like QAS Traveler 23-4 or Emulation 31 because of their EPDs; but rather because you know from past performance that they are capable of producing a great individual offspring
http://www.ohldecattle.com/sires/traveler6807.html
It is a gamble and you may be passing up the opportunity to go with a hot current sire that may ultimately be better.

 

[Frankie]

It is a gamble and you may be passing up the opportunity to go with a hot current sire that may ultimately be better.

Or you could use a well proven bull and have fewer nasty surprises.

This reminds me of a former Angus breeder not too far from here in Texas some years ago. He'd bought the dam of a well known Angus AI bull. At one of his cow sales he auctioned the right to flush her to the bull of the buyer's choice. Well, the buyer wanted her flushed to AAR New Trend. He had to jump through some hoops, but found the semen and they flushed the cow. At the guy's bull sale a couple of years later, he sold some AAR New Trend bulls out of that cow. They didn't sell well at all. Their EPDs were not as good as his other bulls and their growth reflected those lower EPDs compared to the sons of more current sires.

 

[Brandonm22]

It is a gamble and you may be passing up the opportunity to go with a hot current sire that may ultimately be better.

Or you could use a well proven bull and have fewer nasty surprises.

This reminds me of a former Angus breeder not too far from here in Texas some years ago. He'd bought the dam of a well known Angus AI bull. At one of his cow sales he auctioned the right to flush her to the bull of the buyer's choice. Well, the buyer wanted her flushed to AAR New Trend. He had to jump through some hoops, but found the semen and they flushed the cow. At the guy's bull sale a couple of years later, he sold some AAR New Trend bulls out of that cow. They didn't sell well at all. Their EPDs were not as good as his other bulls and their growth reflected those lower EPDs compared to the sons of more current sires.

He probably realized he had lost money when they were born bulls instead of heifers/valuable donor prospects. Even with the best genetics, most calves are ultimately only worth about a $1.10 a lb.....if that.