Angus bull

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Well we went ahead and purchased the bull.
I appreciate the assessments and suggestions.
It would have been a good thing I'm sure to have gotten a bull from Gizmo Angus.
I know they have top quality Angus cattle.
We considered contacting them, but then decided against it.
I would rather be in Florida than to bring a bull from there. Lol
We are just not big on sight unseen purchases even though I'm sure they would do us right.
Late in season, picked over bulls, not exactly the timing I would want for a venture like that. Then there's the long haul in this heat, then be expected to breed cows and eat fescue ( clover is good this year so it is diluted).
I know the EPD's are not good on the bull we bought nor is great in a lot of other areas, but he looks consistent with the Angus that I see around here though a lot them have much better numbers.
The Stone Gate breeding on the bottom side is atleast longtime established regional genetics that a lot of people swear by.
He is basically replacing our older BWF bull. My thinking is this Angus bull will put out calves very similar to the BWF but will be all black or BWF.
Later on we are hoping to buy another Hereford bull that will be more of a growth bull.
I've been watching this conversation with interest because I've never put a lot of weight in EPDs compared to what I see both in the pasture and in the sale numbers. I've never wanted nor used CE/LBW bulls except on first calf heifers and even then never the most extreme.

I think your bull looks pretty decent and if he compliments your cows, meaning he will improve their average calves, then you'll do well. And all this talk about EPDs and pedigrees will be moot. It's surprising to me how people put so much stock in EPDs and know so little about conformation, rates of gain, and maternal ability which can all be seen in the animal rather than on a sheet of paper. EPDs are a tool to be used, but they not as important as the conversation would suggest. If they were, every buyer at a sale barn would be looking for great EPDs instead of looking at the animals they are buying.
 
I have had breeders including this year refuse to provide actual data or in herd ratios. He only provided same pasture ratios. He said they run their cows scattered over a large area and the forage quality varies so he doesn't do in herd comparisons or provide actual data. When this is the policy I move on.
That's BS not to provide data. I summer cows in three lease pastures that are 30 miles apart in a triangle. I put all the calves into single contemporary groups for each sex (heifers, bulls and steers). I could group them by pasture as well, but I want as large of groups as reasonable and the pastures are comparable enough in quality. I provide the complete performance record on an animal if a prospective buyer wants it and the data is available on the Angus Association phone app if we need to pull it up while looking at cattle.
 
I've been watching this conversation with interest because I've never put a lot of weight in EPDs compared to what I see both in the pasture and in the sale numbers. I've never wanted nor used CE/LBW bulls except on first calf heifers and even then never the most extreme.

I think your bull looks pretty decent and if he compliments your cows, meaning he will improve their average calves, then you'll do well. And all this talk about EPDs and pedigrees will be moot. It's surprising to me how people put so much stock in EPDs and know so little about conformation, rates of gain, and maternal ability which can all be seen in the animal rather than on a sheet of paper. EPDs are a tool to be used, but they not as important as the conversation would suggest. If they were, every buyer at a sale barn would be looking for great EPDs instead of looking at the animals they are buying.
I agree with you, EPD's are in my mind just a tool, and should just be a part of selection.
For example the scrotal circumference EPD for the bull is very low, yet in reality his appear to be very large. He also scored significantly higher on the BSE than the other bulls. He was said to have been at 93%.
This bull will be used as mainly a heifer bull for us, after this season in which he will finish with the spring calving cows, and will serve as a replacement for our current older BWF bull. I believe this new one will be very similar to him. This bull seems to have a straighter top and more filled in behind the shoulders than our old bull.
We are still hopeful of bringing in more of a power bull with more frame and growth when the breeder we got the Hereford bull from has more bulls ready.
We are trying to move away from the CE type bulls especially for our cows.
It's hard to find bulls that are not CE here regionally, they are only a very small percentage that most breeders have.
I've not been to a registered sale in a while, but what I saw was that the buyers wanted CE. They knew enough about EPD's to believe in the do it all curve benders. The bulls with higher BW EPD's were generally less expensive at sales, occasionally there would be some interest in that and they would get a good sale but generally the most interest was in CE bulls.
This new bull is stout made, there is quite a bit of space between his legs when looking at him from the front or back. Definitely on of the wider made bulls except for our previous Simmental bull.
 
That's BS not to provide data. I summer cows in three lease pastures that are 30 miles apart in a triangle. I put all the calves into single contemporary groups for each sex (heifers, bulls and steers). I could group them by pasture as well, but I want as large of groups as reasonable and the pastures are comparable enough in quality. I provide the complete performance record on an animal if a prospective buyer wants it and the data is available on the Angus Association phone app if we need to pull it up while looking at cattle.
That is my feelings. Too me when they deny me information I feel I need is they are saying they don't feel I'm smart enough to use it. If they feel there was a difference due too pasture conditions they can tell me. This spring I found a nice bull I liked but his actual yearling weight was 1,000 lbs. The others in the same group and age was all over 1,100. Several over 1,200. I asked if he had been sick The breeder said no. His weaning weight was lower also. He was sired by a highly promoted growth/efficiency sire. I decided against him. Our bulls that only received 3-4 lbs of grain and not near as fat weighed more than him. I do ask questions if I see a difference to see if their is an legit reason for the difference. ABut when they deny me the information I move on.
 
I agree with you, EPD's are in my mind just a tool, and should just be a part of selection.
For example the scrotal circumference EPD for the bull is very low, yet in reality his appear to be very large. He also scored significantly higher on the BSE than the other bulls. He was said to have been at 93%.
This bull will be used as mainly a heifer bull for us, after this season in which he will finish with the spring calving cows, and will serve as a replacement for our current older BWF bull. I believe this new one will be very similar to him. This bull seems to have a straighter top and more filled in behind the shoulders than our old bull.
We are still hopeful of bringing in more of a power bull with more frame and growth when the breeder we got the Hereford bull from has more bulls ready.
We are trying to move away from the CE type bulls especially for our cows.
It's hard to find bulls that are not CE here regionally, they are only a very small percentage that most breeders have.
I've not been to a registered sale in a while, but what I saw was that the buyers wanted CE. They knew enough about EPD's to believe in the do it all curve benders. The bulls with higher BW EPD's were generally less expensive at sales, occasionally there would be some interest in that and they would get a good sale but generally the most interest was in CE bulls.
This new bull is stout made, there is quite a bit of space between his legs when looking at him from the front or back. Definitely on of the wider made bulls except for our previous Simmental bull.
In this area the market has changed. A big stout power bull with a 100 BW sells at the top. Bud on a few this year. The cheapest was $8,000.00 and several in the 10-12 range. A few years ago they would of been in the bottom 1/3 price wise.
 
In this area the market has changed. A big stout power bull with a 100 BW sells at the top. Bud on a few this year. The cheapest was $8,000.00 and several in the 10-12 range. A few years ago they would of been in the bottom 1/3 price wise.
Where is, "in this area?"

Please go to your profile and add a location. It's so easy to do and such valuable information.
 
I agree with you, EPD's are in my mind just a tool, and should just be a part of selection.
For example the scrotal circumference EPD for the bull is very low, yet in reality his appear to be very large. He also scored significantly higher on the BSE than the other bulls. He was said to have been at 93%.
This bull will be used as mainly a heifer bull for us, after this season in which he will finish with the spring calving cows, and will serve as a replacement for our current older BWF bull. I believe this new one will be very similar to him. This bull seems to have a straighter top and more filled in behind the shoulders than our old bull.
We are still hopeful of bringing in more of a power bull with more frame and growth when the breeder we got the Hereford bull from has more bulls ready.
We are trying to move away from the CE type bulls especially for our cows.
It's hard to find bulls that are not CE here regionally, they are only a very small percentage that most breeders have.
I've not been to a registered sale in a while, but what I saw was that the buyers wanted CE. They knew enough about EPD's to believe in the do it all curve benders. The bulls with higher BW EPD's were generally less expensive at sales, occasionally there would be some interest in that and they would get a good sale but generally the most interest was in CE bulls.
This new bull is stout made, there is quite a bit of space between his legs when looking at him from the front or back. Definitely on of the wider made bulls except for our previous Simmental bull.
And he is LONG.
CE has been shoved down everyone's thoat and they think it is most important. NOT! It's OK to have a little CE as long as they still have GROWTH.
Problem being - the more CE you use - the more you NEED.
 
I'll try to get some better pictures when we get the bull home. I was trying to get some fast while there looking at them.
I was in the lot with them without the owners, so I wasn't sure how the bulls would react, so I just kind of took it easy so as not to scare them away. They did real well. A little bit of pawing around but that's typical of bulls that age.
I didn't get very good camera angles, while the bull is not real tall, he isn't as short as the picture of the front looks to be, but he is wide long and deep made.F2CE3ACB-8A7D-4561-8032-C85322D7965D.jpeg2540871D-1626-4135-BEB5-F26A6BFB2B66.jpegD3C83333-2DFD-46F4-820A-3A0103BBCC3B.jpeg
 

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