Angus bull to add frame

[DOC HARRIS]

There were 7 frame Angus when I was in high school (the Powerplay sons' Lovana and Scothcap come too mind quickly) . I don't see how anybody in the cattle biz in America missed the last 20+ years.

The Beef Breeder's were too busy re-adjusting their protocols and believing high profile advertisements and publicity to see the gradual slide in phenotype quality in combination with EPD's. It was easier to "Breed by the Numbers" and ignore the WORK of phenotype selection! Proper selection of Beef seedstock is a Symbiotic Relationship between Phenotype and Genotype (EPD's) blending together for optimal results! It takes thought and study. And it's NOT easy.

DOC HARRIS

 

[S.R.R.]

.
there is plenty of Angus Bulls that will add frame to beef cattle more so than many of the other beef breeds.
"
Maybe the New Year's holiday lasted a little to long for him. Sure hope he doesn't decide to go to New Orleans for Mardi Gras."

What beef breeds would these be?

P.S. I was in New Orleans for new years 2000 what a party!!!!

 

[la4angus]

.
there is plenty of Angus Bulls that will add frame to beef cattle more so than many of the other beef breeds.
"
Maybe the New Year's holiday lasted a little to long for him. Sure hope he doesn't decide to go to New Orleans for Mardi Gras."

What beef breeds would these be?

P.S. I was in New Orleans for new years 2000 what a party!!!!

Hereefords, Polled and Horned will add size. All you have to do isi get out and look for them. In canada, you can find many good quality Shorthorns that will do the same.

 

[S.R.R.]

.
there is plenty of Angus Bulls that will add frame to beef cattle more so than many of the other beef breeds.
"
Maybe the New Year's holiday lasted a little to long for him. Sure hope he doesn't decide to go to New Orleans for Mardi Gras."

What beef breeds would these be?

P.S. I was in New Orleans for new years 2000 what a party!!!!

Hereefords, Polled and Horned will add size. All you have to do isi get out and look for them. In canada, you can find many good quality Shorthorns that will do the same.

:shock: Did you say Herefords????? I guess that you have not seen the kind of Herefords we raise up here. The only kind of Angus that is going to add frame to another breed of beef cattle are the cross bred Angus.( or "bred up" Angus as some call them.)

Yes there are so called Angus cattle these days with plenty of frame but they have a bit of continental in the wood pile if you know what I mean. ;-)

 

[la4angus]

.
there is plenty of Angus Bulls that will add frame to beef cattle more so than many of the other beef breeds.
"
Maybe the New Year's holiday lasted a little to long for him. Sure hope he doesn't decide to go to New Orleans for Mardi Gras."

What beef breeds would these be?

P.S. I was in New Orleans for new years 2000 what a party!!!!

Hereefords, Polled and Horned will add size. All you have to do isi get out and look for them. In canada, you can find many good quality Shorthorns that will do the same.

:shock: Did you say Herefords????? I guess that you have not seen the kind of Herefords we raise up here. The only kind of Angus that is going to add frame to another breed of beef cattle are the cross bred Angus.( or "bred up" Angus as some call them.)

Yes there are so called Angus cattle these days with plenty of frame but they have a bit of continental in the wood pile if you know what I mean. ;-)

I know exactly what you are saying.You need to take your head out of the sand.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

.
there is plenty of Angus Bulls that will add frame to beef cattle more so than many of the other beef breeds.
"
Maybe the New Year's holiday lasted a little to long for him. Sure hope he doesn't decide to go to New Orleans for Mardi Gras."

What beef breeds would these be?

P.S. I was in New Orleans for new years 2000 what a party!!!!

Hereefords, Polled and Horned will add size. All you have to do isi get out and look for them. In canada, you can find many good quality Shorthorns that will do the same.

:shock: Did you say Herefords????? I guess that you have not seen the kind of Herefords we raise up here. The only kind of Angus that is going to add frame to another breed of beef cattle are the cross bred Angus.( or "bred up" Angus as some call them.)

Yes there are so called Angus cattle these days with plenty of frame but they have a bit of continental in the wood pile if you know what I mean. ;-)

I know exactly what you are saying.You need to take your head out of the sand.

i think where his head is. has a more pungent odor than sand

 

[la4angus]

i think where his head is. has a more pungent odor than sand[/quote]I want to see if he coughs when he removes his head from the sand

 

[S.R.R.]

I want to see if he coughs when he removes his head from the sand

Cough, cough!

Now that my head is out of the sand I do see things clearer!

Angus is the breed of choice when you need to add frame to your cattle!! ( NOT! )

:lol: :lol:

Give me a break what are you trying to sell us now? Angus the wonder breed is "NOT" a go to breed when you want to add frame to your cattle .

Simple as that.

And to think that Herefords are the breed of cattle that you think could improve their frame with some Angus blood is just plain funny.

 

[Brandonm2]

I don't understand the humour. There are big 8 frame 1800 lb Hereford cows and there are big 8 frame 1800 lb Angus cows. Doc told us about a frame 10 Angus bull that was at Denver ~a year ago. What does a frame 10 cow weigh?? 2100 lbs???Those cattle may not be typical of their breed but they are hardly uncommon. We are in a business where today you can breed 4 frame registered Simmental cows to 9 frame Angus bulls if you want too. Frame is ~80% heritable. It is VERY easy too breed cattle taller or shorter.

 

[S.R.R.]

I don't understand the humour. There are big 8 frame 1800 lb Hereford cows and there are big 8 frame 1800 lb Angus cows. Doc told us about a frame 10 Angus bull that was at Denver ~a year ago. What does a frame 10 cow weigh?? 2100 lbs???Those cattle may not be typical of their breed but they are hardly uncommon. We are in a business where today you can breed 4 frame registered Simmental cows to 9 frame Angus bulls if you want too. Frame is ~80% heritable. It is VERY easy too breed cattle taller or shorter.

Would you say that a 8-10 frame Angus cow has the quitaly well marbled beef, early maturation, easy doing traits of the original Angus?
When 10 frame 2100lb Angus cows are hardly uncommon you are looking at a cows with some other breed in the wood pile.

If you want to know a go to breed for adding frame to your cattle find out what breed the Angus used to get 10 framed cows! ;-)

 

[ALACOWMAN]

i didnt read where LA was suggesting that angus would add frame to a hereford. he said there is plenty of beef cattle that would add frame to a animal like a hereford or shorthorn. you see it all boils down to not.... READING... someones post and.... ABSORBING... .what they have said. before you respond. think about these key elements to a response. READ. ABSORB, UNDERSTAND and heres the most important part know what the HE!! your talking about

 

[S.R.R.]

i didnt read where LA was suggesting that angus would add frame to a hereford.

.
there is plenty of Angus Bulls that will add frame to beef cattle more so than many of the other beef breeds.

What beef breeds would these be?

Hereefords, Polled and Horned

READ. ABSORB, UNDERSTAND ;-)

 

[ALACOWMAN]

i didnt read where LA was suggesting that angus would add frame to a hereford.

.
there is plenty of Angus Bulls that will add frame to beef cattle more so than many of the other beef breeds.

What beef breeds would these be?

Hereefords, Polled and Horned

READ. ABSORB, UNDERSTAND ;-)

no actually rearanged and destorted as usual to suit your reponse.

 

[S.R.R.]

i didnt read where LA was suggesting that angus would add frame to a hereford.

.
there is plenty of Angus Bulls that will add frame to beef cattle more so than many of the other beef breeds.

What beef breeds would these be?

Hereefords, Polled and Horned

READ. ABSORB, UNDERSTAND ;-)

no actually rearanged and destorted as usual to suit your reponse.

Just simplified for you to understand. ;-)

If you want to continue with this pi$$ing match lets use pms there is no need to get this thread locked.

I would like to hear others views on the Angus to add frame debit.

 

[Brandonm2]

I don't understand the humour. There are big 8 frame 1800 lb Hereford cows and there are big 8 frame 1800 lb Angus cows. Doc told us about a frame 10 Angus bull that was at Denver ~a year ago. What does a frame 10 cow weigh?? 2100 lbs???Those cattle may not be typical of their breed but they are hardly uncommon. We are in a business where today you can breed 4 frame registered Simmental cows to 9 frame Angus bulls if you want too. Frame is ~80% heritable. It is VERY easy too breed cattle taller or shorter.

Would you say that a 8-10 frame Angus cow has the quitaly well marbled beef, early maturation, easy doing traits of the original Angus?
When 10 frame 2100lb Angus cows are hardly uncommon you are looking at a cows with some other breed in the wood pile.

If you want to know a go to breed for adding frame to your cattle find out what breed the Angus used to get 10 framed cows! ;-)

I have never denied that Simmental played a role in Hereford's size increase and it is pretty obvious too me that some lines of Angus have some characteristics one would expect too more commonly find amoung Holsteins. Dr Ritchie (Michigan State) says the same thing publicly and on the record. That is ancient history. Once you add outside genes to a closed pool you can't predict where they will fall. Ten generations after the fact, too assume that a frame 8 Angus has any more or less "taint" than does a frame 4 just because you see the height is not necessarily accurate. Some of these Black, polled, moderate framed, mellow Simmentals LOOK a little more like what my mind says an Angus "looks like" than some of these tall, long, roman nosed, angular, funnell butted, lite muscled, heavy milking, white uddered, 1600 lb registered Angus cows that I see. BUT "Angus" is whatever the breed association says it is. A whole generation of cattlemen have grown up with seeing 1500 lb frame 7 and frame 8 Hereford and Angus cows as common. I think it is past time for us to just accept that IN THIS REALITY, Simmentals can be solid black, polled, easy keeping, and moderate framed; Limousins can be black; Beefmasters!! can be black; Hereford bulls can weigh 3400 lbs, have no white on the neck and a red raccoon mask; and an ANgus purebreeder can have a herd of hard doing 1800-1900 lb moma cows with long roman noses. It is certainly correct too say that there are lines of Angus which will add frame, height, length, and growth to a set of commercial cows.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

i didnt read where LA was suggesting that angus would add frame to a hereford.

.
there is plenty of Angus Bulls that will add frame to beef cattle more so than many of the other beef breeds.

What beef breeds would these be?

Hereefords, Polled and Horned

READ. ABSORB, UNDERSTAND ;-)

no actually rearanged and destorted as usual to suit your reponse.

Just simplified for you to understand. ;-)

If you want to continue with this pi$$ing match lets use pms there is no need to get this thread locked.

I would like to hear others views on the Angus to add frame debit.

it won't get locked if you will read before you respond. and not take things out of content. you'r good at the pm's ill leave those up to you

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Well done, Brandonm2! This subject of "Who did What to Whom and When, and WHY!" can be belabored and mis-quoted and misunderstood ad infinitum ad nauseum and there will still be skeptics, nay-sayers, pessimists and cynics who will stamp their feet and throw a cat-fit and claim that THEY are right concerning the ancestral genetic facts of pedigree backgrounds! OK! Voila' There it is! Is it really worth all of the RHETORIC surrounding the UNRESOLVABLE details of which Bull, or which Cow in WHICH breed was utilized in the breeding-up and improving of any breed which, through the greed, selfishness, arrogance and contempt of breed quality 50 - 60 years ago by grasping con artists almost destroyed and obliterated several basic Beef Breeds (Angus, Hereford and Shorthorn) - and, thank GOD, a few progressive and intelligent BREEDER'S decided to rectfy the problem and bring those breeds back to the prominence which we see and, hopefully, use to advantage today?

Any knowledgeable breeder is aware that two seemingly antagonistic factors combine for the improvement and utilization of livestock: homozygosity of dominant factors, and crossbreeding (or - outcrossing) of desirable and optimal phenotype for the ULTIMATE end product to achieve the total results for which we all are striving! Is it necessary, or salient, that a group of supposedly brilliant Cattle Breeder's argue and split hairs over the infusion of some OTHER breed's genes being brought in to overcome the stupidity of investors with too much money and not enough brains - or integrity twenty five generations ago?

Spare me!

DOC HARRIS

 

[Brandonm2]

Dr Harlon Ritchie is admitting that it happened. I think most knowledgable breeders admit (sometimes reluctantly) that it happened. It is too late too start a witch hunt about some bull that has been dead for 30 years. The breeds are what they are. Genetic diversity has been increased. You as a breeder have the option to use or not use any genetics within the breed today to achieve the goals you set for your herd.

 

[S.R.R.]

Brandonm2 When we start admitting that some breeds have used others to "breed up" where are we left when it comes to breed traits? You and I know that the Angus are known for early maturation and finishing but now we have 8-10 frame Angus can we still think of the breed traits as the same?

 

[Brandonm2]

Brandonm2 When we start admitting that some breeds have used others to "breed up" where are we left when it comes to breed traits? You and I know that the Angus are known for early maturation and finishing but now we have 8-10 frame Angus can we still think of the breed traits as the same?

No we can not assume that every animal in any breed will perform just like our preconceived notions about that breed. Obviously a shallow ribbed, flat ribbed, post legged frame 8 cow is likely to be a hard doer EVEN if that cow is carrying an Angus or Hereford registration paper. There are literally hundreds of thousands of REGISTERED Angus cows floating around out there and ten times that many commercial or grade Angus. You can find what you want in the breed, whether that is the 15,000th registered EXT daughter, an Angus 'classic', a lowline the size of a Ramboulliet sheep, or one of those 9 or 10 frames that show up at the stock shows. You just have to do your homework, use your eyeball, common sense, the pedigree, and the EPDs too pick out the animals in the breed which will do what you want them to do in your particular situation.