Angus bull to add frame

[Brandonm2]

What would be your feelings with using a lower birth EPD bull on the first calf heifers and then maybe using a bull such as First Edition after the heifers have had one calf and you know kind of what they can handle as cows?

I agree with what Doc said. LA4Angus knows HIS heifers, HIS management, HIS program, and what will or will NOT work in his situation. I totally believe him when he says HE has no problems with the bull. His heifers MIGHT well be able too handle one of Mike's Char bulls.

The concern I have with making a recommendation over the internet is that I have not seen these heifers, don't know their breeding, their frame score, don't know the management or the nutrition program. IF you are asking me if a typical run of the mill set of Angus heifers with a typical manager, with a typical nutrition program, should be bred to a bull with a 4.9 Birth Wt EPD and keeping in mind that IF I have seen a baby calf out of this bull (and I probably have) I don't actually remember it......my answer is NO simply too much risk.

 

[bullpeddler]

[/quote]This is off the subject but if anyone would answer it I'd appreciate it. I don't know much about Simmentals but I was looking on the bullbarn link in this post at the Red Sims and everyone of them has Black Simmental Sire listed at the top of their picture. Does that mean that they all came out of black bulls? Do all Simmental blood lines have black in em now? Just curious. Thanks.

No, not all lines. However, the mainstream simmental cattle nowadays are either black or non-diluter red, polled, moderate frame with balanced EPD's. There are still a few hold outs who trade amongst themselves and raise the original red and yellow import cattle that are spotted, horned and hard calving.

 

[Rustler9]

So was the reason for adding the Angus blood to reduce birth weight as well as color? I like the Simmental breed ok, just wouldn't want them to look like an Angus or any of the other mainstream black look alikes.

 

[bullpeddler]

Actually, when Simmentals were first imported to this country they were crossed on Angus and Angus cross females and many of the offspring were black or gray. This was part of a breeding up program and the first black Simmental were not really as "in demand" as they are now. I believe that improvement in birth weight/calving ease is more a result of selection than anything else. Hopefully, through selection, over the years since the first cattle were imported, the breed has retained its desirable traits (grow, milk, yield grade, disposition) while toning down its less desirable traits (calving ease, fleshing abilitity, frame). Many of the Simmental that I see today still have lots breed character--they just work better when used on English cattle. There are many Simmental bulls that can be used safely on first calf Angus heifers and the resulting calves are outstanding.

 

[S.R.R.]

Your ? is an oxymoron

 

[purecountry]

Like Brandon said, we haven't seen the heifers, and unless I missed it somewhere, nobody has stated or asked how big they are. My question is, why would you want to add frame, unless they're real small, and if they're real small, play it safe and go with a definite CE bull. But again, how big are they?

DOC - I agree with you wholeheartedly about putting more muscle and butt back into the Angus breed. That is a big reason why we don't use Angus in our commercial herd anymore. All frame, no flesh. I have to question why we need them bigger though. I think size is like management - do what works for you. If some folks have success selling 1500lb yearlings with 100lb BW's, that will sire frame 6-7 daughters, good for them. If some folks can sell 1500lb 2 year old bulls with 60lb BW's, that will leave frame 4 daughters, there's nothing wrong with that. What I think they need, is just what you said - more muscle. I'd like to see an Angus bull nowadays in one of these semen catalogs that has good round muscle all the way to his hock. I can't remember the last one I saw.

 

[S.R.R.]

What I think they need, is just what you said - more muscle. I'd like to see an Angus bull nowadays in one of these semen catalogs that has good round muscle all the way to his hock. I can't remember the last one I saw.

Purecountry if you want a black british breed that has all of the above and more you have to look not further then the Welsh Black!!

 

[Aero]

any suggestions on a LBW angus bull that will add a frame to breed my heifers to?

WAR Alliance

we have quite a few nice animals out of him and they are pretty large framed. his growth numbers are for real and one of his sons topped our sale this year. he ist much to look at in person, but most of his calves we have had are pretty nice. one had pretty narrow shoulders and walked funny, but that was the exception.

what frame score are the animals you have now? why do you want to add frame?

 

[caldwellangus]

13046617 proven
14876747 1st calves in Feb

 

[purecountry]

What I think they need, is just what you said - more muscle. I'd like to see an Angus bull nowadays in one of these semen catalogs that has good round muscle all the way to his hock. I can't remember the last one I saw.

Purecountry if you want a black british breed that has all of the above and more you have to look not further then the Welsh Black!!

I have Galloways, thanks SRR. I would just like to see an Angus bull that had it. It's painful to see what some people have bred out of their cattle.

 

[S.R.R.]

What I think they need, is just what you said - more muscle. I'd like to see an Angus bull nowadays in one of these semen catalogs that has good round muscle all the way to his hock. I can't remember the last one I saw.

Purecountry if you want a black british breed that has all of the above and more you have to look not further then the Welsh Black!!

I have Galloways, thanks SRR. I would just like to see an Angus bull that had it. It's painful to see what some people have bred out of their cattle.

Could not agree more!

 

[la4angus]

I received this in a PM this morning from a client in Illinois who bought First Edition Semen last winter. This is not to heavy of a calf from a mature cow of this size.
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Quote
Wanted you to know that we had our first "First Edition" calf on 1/3/07 - out of a 3 year old 5175 daughter - she weighed 1885 a month before calving - had a really nice 75lb bull calf.

 

[Brandonm2]

Nobody is saying that EVERY calf out of ANY high birth wt EPD sire is going to be too big or for that matter that a LOW birth wt EPD sire NEVER has a calf that is too big. All the EPD tells anybody is that a bull with a 4.9 birth wt EPD is MORE likely too sire calves on the big end than a bull with a lower birth wt EPD and for that reason I would not use him on a set of heifers.

75 lb for an 1885 lb cow is less than 4% oF her total bodyweight....are they sure there isn't another calf or two hiding out in there somewhere??....just kidding.

 

[la4angus]

Nobody is saying that EVERY calf out of ANY high birth wt EPD sire is going to be too big or for that matter that a LOW birth wt EPD sire NEVER has a calf that is too big. All the EPD tells anybody is that a bull with a 4.9 birth wt EPD is MORE likely too sire calves on the big end than a bull with a lower birth wt EPD and for that reason I would not use him on a set of heifers.

75 lb for an 1885 lb cow is less than 4% oF her total bodyweight....are they sure there isn't another calf or two hiding out in there somewhere??....just kidding.

I have no idea about any other calves. I just quoted from the PM that was sent to me. The same people had a 104 hfr calf born about the same time from a cow that weighed 2000 lb a mo. before delivering.
IMO that size cows should deliver calves quiet a bit larger, but we don't know the cows BW EPD either. The bull has an average of 50% of the calves BW and the cow 50%.

 

[la4angus]

Your ? is an oxymoron

S. R. R., who are you reeferring to. And what is the question.

 

[VanC]

Your ? is an oxymoron

S. R. R., who are you reeferring to. And what is the question.

I believe he was referring to the title of the thread "Angus bull to add frame." I think he was inferring that an Angus bull CAN'T add frame, thus the oxymoron. I could be wrong, but that's the way I took it.

 

[la4angus]

Your ? is an oxymoron

S. R. R., who are you reeferring to. And what is the question.

I believe he was referring to the title of the thread "Angus bull to add frame." I think he was inferring that an Angus bull CAN'T add frame, thus the oxymoron. I could be wrong, but that's the way I took it.

Thanks. Maybe he needs to wake up and smell the coffee. :lol:

 

[VanC]

Your ? is an oxymoron

S. R. R., who are you reeferring to. And what is the question.

I believe he was referring to the title of the thread "Angus bull to add frame." I think he was inferring that an Angus bull CAN'T add frame, thus the oxymoron. I could be wrong, but that's the way I took it.

Thanks. Maybe he needs to wqke uo and smell the coffee. :lol:

Yup. Can't say that I agree, if that's what he meant. I don't like putting words in other people's mouths, but that sure is the way I took it. Maybe he'll come along soon and clarify.

 

[la4angus]

Your ? is an oxymoron

S. R. R., who are you reeferring to. And what is the question.

I believe he was referring to the title of the thread "Angus bull to add frame." I think he was inferring that an Angus bull CAN'T add frame, thus the oxymoron. I could be wrong, but that's the way I took it.

Thanks. Maybe he needs to wqke uo and smell the coffee. :lol:

Yup. Can't say that I agree, if that's what he meant. I don't like putting words in other people's mouths, but that sure is the way I took it. Maybe he'll come along soon and clarify.

I agree with you, as far as I can see that is all he could be talking about. If the guy would open his eyes he could see that there is plenty of Angus Bulls that will add frame to beef cattle more so than many of the other beef breeds.
But he has come on here before on the stupidity of AI. Maybe the New Year's holiday lasted a little to long for him. Sure hope he doesn't decide to go to New Orleans for Mardi Gras. He may never shut up.

 

[Brandonm2]

There were 7 frame Angus when I was in high school (the Powerplay sons' Lovana and Scothcap come too mind quickly) . I don't see how anybody in the cattle biz in America missed the last 20+ years.