Angus Bull Selection Question

[jscunn]

I am looking to purchase a new bull to breed heifers. I have a good grasp on what BW EPD to look for (~1.5 or less). What about CED (Calving Ease Direct) should I put more or less emphasis on CED vs BW. What is the min CED number to look for , is it 8 higher/lower? I have seen some good looking pedigrees for what we want to do with BW of 2.7 and a CED of 8 (which is pretty good). Would that calf work? Frankie, anybody help.

 

[Dusty Britches]

That is a great question. I bought my bull just before CED came out. His BW epd was .9 and his actual BW was 65 pounds. His actual weaning weight was 775 ( I can't remember the epd). His actual yearling weight was 1295. He had the highest BW to WW to YW ratio in the sale. Most of his calves are 70 pounds, although he has thrown a few 65 and a few 80s. His calves grow well, too, averaging 600 pounds at 6 months.

 

[Victoria]

Hi Dusty Britches,
I have just gotten really into reading EPD's in the last year or so but we are in a situation similiar to you and I will tell you what our thoughts have been. We are looking for semen for our heifers. BW EPDs are important of course but make sure you find out the actual BW as well. There can be 92 pounders out there with a BW EPD of -.3. We decided to pair a high calving ease with a low actual BW. If a bull is built wrong a light pound calf can still got hung up on a small heifer.
I'd forgive them a little higher BW if their CE goes up as well - but then our heifers are a little larger and could handle 5 pounds more without a problem. I read that bulls with 6 and over are supposed to be the only ones to look for if you want a really easy calving heifer bull. However, we are looking for those 8+ bulls for our program.
Of course there are a lot of other things to take into consideration like the size of your heifers, if the heifers are the same breed as the bull you are buying and of course nothing beats looking at the bull.
As for a BW of 2.7 and CE of 8 - that might really be good - depending on the actual BW.
I hope this helped and I also hope someone with more knowledge than me answers your post because I would like to see what they say.

 

[Rod]

The size of your heifers will play the a large part in the kind of bull that you will need, but I would advise you to get a low epd BW as well as a bull with a low actual birthweight and porportioned right for extra insurance. I purchased a bull with a -1.1 BB, 46 WW and a 78YW. His calf ease was 13 and actual birthweight was 54lbs. To me thats a heifer specific bull and had appealing WW and YW's as well. Best of luck!

 

[Frankie]

I am looking to purchase a new bull to breed heifers. I have a good grasp on what BW EPD to look for (~1.5 or less). What about CED (Calving Ease Direct) should I put more or less emphasis on CED vs BW. What is the min CED number to look for , is it 8 higher/lower? I have seen some good looking pedigrees for what we want to do with BW of 2.7 and a CED of 8 (which is pretty good). Would that calf work? Frankie, anybody help.

A higher CED number is "better" than a lower CED number. I would think that 8 would be acceptable for first calf heifers, but I have to admit that I still look at BW EPDs. All our cows have EPDs, too, so that makes it easier for me to make decisions. The Angus Assn has said bulls with BW EPDs of less than 3 are generally safe to use on first calf heifers.

Take some time and go to the http://www.angus.org site and look at the bull's parent's and grandparent's BW EPDs and CEDs. Sometimes there'll be a spoiler in the pedigree with a BW EPD of 15 or so that will jump out and bite you when you use a bull on heifers. PM his number to me if you want, or put it out here for folks to evaluate.

All of the above is related to the bull. The heifer and your management have as much to do with the size of the calf as the bull does.

 

[Larry Sansom]

KY has a cost share program for bulls/semen and "heifer acceptable" need a 7 CED or better, whereas a "balanced trait bull" needs only a 1 CED and a "terminal bull" can go as high as a -5 CED These numbers are based on a percentile table ranking.

CED involves a lot of things other than weight - shape, assistance needed, etc. The bw is a part of equation - but CED has more data. All the "science" types are swearing by the CED. As with anything - better look at more than numbers- we often forget to look at the bull - do you want sons and daughters by him - or are you just chasing numbers?

 

[Angus Guy]

Using the bull EPD's is a great tool, but remember the cow numbers are just as important. Also your feeding program will determine calf size to great degree.

 

[Chuckie]

jscunn, I have thought about the same thing. It is kind of confusing sometimes what the numbers tell. I cannot figure out how they can say a bull has a CED of +7 when his BW is 2.2, then look a few bulls down and his CED is +3 and his BW is 2.5. Seems to me that the CED's would run a little closer. There are too many varibles that contribute to the CED, that they should have to give a written statement on why they came up with that number. Then that would stop the confusion. One with a low CED might of had a calf with a head the size of a watermelon and the cow was the size of a German Sheapard.
Since I can't figure out which one means the most and what the circumstances are, I just try to find one with a low BW and a high CED. I still can't figure out how SAF Choice Plus could have a CED of 4 and a BW of 3.5 and Sydgen Eclipse has a CED of 3 and a BW of 2.5. I see this a lot on the evaluations on this subject. I am wondering if the people that rate these bulls are still trying to figure it out themselves.
When you get it figured out, let me know. I need more educating.
Did you check out Sydgen Ally in the sale book? I think he has gone through some major changes.

 

[preston39]

That is a great question. I bought my bull just before CED came out. His BW epd was .9 and his actual BW was 65 pounds. His actual weaning weight was 775 ( I can't remember the epd). His actual yearling weight was 1295. He had the highest BW to WW to YW ratio in the sale. Most of his calves are 70 pounds, although he has thrown a few 65 and a few 80s. His calves grow well, too, averaging 600 pounds at 6 months.

========
Dusty...,
What is the line of that bull...and who was his sire?
If you don't mind...just curious.

 

[jscunn]

Chuckie,
I think that CED has more to due with the Birth Code you enter in AHIR. (1= no assistance, 2= some assistance, etc). BW is BW. I will rephrase my original question, would you rather have a 2.8 BW EPD, 8 CED direct bull or a 1.8EPD 5 CED bull to breed heifers

 

[Brandonm2]

I am old school. I would rather have the bull with the lower birth weight EPD. I have never had a "hard" pull of a 75 pound or less calf. This is especially true if we are talking about a virgin bull (versus an ai sire with a 1000 calves on the ground) with no real births yet reported to the breed association.

 

[Chuckie]

I had rather have the lower BW since there are so many variables of situations and people making a call on the CED. The BW would be the most reliable number for me to count on.

 

[susie]

What do you guys do with a heifer with a birthweight 90 pounds? She should be big enough to have a reasonable sized calf come calving time, correct? Or do you have to over-compensate with the bull? And should she be bred to her own breed to minimize hybrid vigor, or how does that play into it? I'm talking about a Hereford .
Just curious, she's already bred to a calving ease Murray Grey, but she's looking ROUND on the right side. ( She's 4 1/2 months preg.)

I know you experienced cattle people must HATE newbies with heifers. ( Lancemart.... where are you?)


Susie

 

[bwranch]

I would do exactly what you did, breed her to a LBW bull. Murray Gray seems to be a good choice but I have no personal experience with them. Don't start worrying now, you'll drive yourself crazy. It wouldn't surprise me to find out that Lancemart is institutionalized somewhere from worrying over that darn heifer. I would not plan for a heifer (mine are angus) to have a 90 lb calf, but if she could not do it, I would invite her to dinner.

Lee

 

[dun]

What bwranch said!
A 90 lb birth weight for a heifers own BW out of a mature cow isn't anthing to worry about when she calves.

dun

 

[susie]

I would do exactly what you did, breed her to a LBW bull. Murray Gray seems to be a good choice but I have no personal experience with them. Don't start worrying now, you'll drive yourself crazy. It wouldn't surprise me to find out that Lancemart is institutionalized somewhere from worrying over that darn heifer. I would not plan for a heifer (mine are angus) to have a 90 lb calf, but if she could not do it, I would invite her to dinner.

Lee

Haha, I'm not really worrying, like I said, just curious.
Now iknow exactly why it's usually recommended for newbies to get a bred cow or a 3-in -one. There's such a long wait for a heifer to calve... let's the mind start to wander.


Thanks,
Susie

 

[Aero]

jscunn:
you are exactly right about CED being based on assistance. BW isn't considered at all from what i understand.

we like to stay around BW 0.0 - +2.0
over +2.0 is getting out of the calving ease range and negative BW sometimes makes a small calf that has a hard time getting started.

for CED, i like to stay over 6 and prefer 9+.

BW is usually the main consideration while letting CED serve as a flag. if I see a BW +1.0 and a CED of +4, i know there is something odd going on (or bad luck) and i am not willing to take a chance on that.

for your particular situations: i lean toward the BW +2.8. i am not really sure why, but the other seems like more of a chance. i think whoever made the suggestion of looking back through the pedigree was spot on. if you dont see anything in the BW 4+ range, it seems pretty safe.

post the reg numbers for the ones being considered and i bet you will get some interesting repsonses that go much deeper than calving ease

 

[Dusty Britches]

========
Dusty...,
What is the line of that bull...and who was his sire?
If you don't mind...just curious.

Ok, I have the papers in front of me.
His EPDs - BW .3, WW 45, Milk 27, YW 85
Actuals - BW 60, WW 700, YW 1292
And, I'm not sure is this is for the breed or for the sale: Top 10% BW, Top 10% WW, Top 3% Milk, Top 10% YW.

He was 18 months when we bought him and weighed 1895 pounds.

He is a Cox New Design 1407, by Bon View New Design 1407.

 

[dcara]

That is a great question. I bought my bull just before CED came out. His BW epd was .9 and his actual BW was 65 pounds. His actual weaning weight was 775 ( I can't remember the epd). His actual yearling weight was 1295. He had the highest BW to WW to YW ratio in the sale. Most of his calves are 70 pounds, although he has thrown a few 65 and a few 80s. His calves grow well, too, averaging 600 pounds at 6 months.

DB, was that weaning weight a 205 day weaning wt, or adjusted 205 day WW? 775lbs WW comes out to over 3.4lbs/ ADG which seems high. 1295 YW also seems pretty high. Was he on some type of feed test program? Was he Angus, Beef Master, or a cross?? Just curious.