Angus breeders

[True Grit Farms]

A lot of the purebred stuff around here is new comers who bought a heifer or 2 and bred it to whatever bull to make a purebred and now have calves for sale. They are only a couple years in and think they are purebred breeders, no culling at all, the animal is purebred, why would you sell it for anything less than top dollar locally? They'll chase totally different bulls year after year, depending on what the magazines and forums tell them to.

I have 0 interest in those animals. I found an old guy (who's closer to 100 then 70), thats become my honey hole for finding reasonably priced animals with more history in them.

That's a great post and very true. But with the use of ET especially and AI the small breeders can produce some top of the line genetics. Personally I can't see why anyone would buy bulls from someone who doesn't cull at least 50% of their calf crop, have a 100+ females, and been an established operation for years. Having 2 out of 3 is acceptable. I asked myself "why would someone want to buy a bull from me" I had nothing to offer besides name brand genetics, and decent culling practices. The reality is the folks that have been in the cow business for years are the ones who made it possible for us to be able to have all this fun.

 

[76 Bar]

Speaking of Angus breeders...the bull sale season has begun on the West Coast.
https://www.facebook.com/search/top/?q=logan ipsen
The $730,000 Lot 1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIZFiJUj5b4&index=1&list=PLcOIUktrBYo-2NmzwvsEqhb84K7cdvyUc

 

[elkwc]

Why can't you?

For starters I'm not spending $10k plus for a heifer. Secondly I gave up on the seedstock dream and market everything commercial. I have some fairly decent cows, but no freight trains or real meat wagons like I see at the top breeders sales. I could probably AI all my cows and AI all their heifers and then AI all their heifers and end up with something or maybe not. But the major reason is I have more to do than I have time to do it.

I hear you, and I'm just a little commercial guy. But I tour the outfits I buy bulls from, and those I don't, and I hear about how incredible this cow is, and how expensive that cow was, and how many shows this cow has won. But I always look at them and their calves and realize a great many of my mutts at home are just as good as anything they have. And the only reason I'm bull shopping is that I'm too lazy to raise my own and I want something not related to what I have. We've been keeping replacements on this place for almost 70 years, so I suppose in a way they are almost our own breed of purebred mutts.
I guess my point is just that just because an animal is a purebred doesn't mean it doesn't have it's equal in the commercial world, and if we select well we can raise as well as we can buy.

Very well stated. I've seen the same in my bull shopping. And most of the time the good bulls than can help your heard are too high to buy and the cheaper bulls should of seen a knife. We have retained one bull each of the last two years and left one a bull this year to watch develop. Had planned to keep 2 but lightning got one. We have an long time Hereford breeder we have bought females from and considering a bull from him. He culls hard so you know after almost 60 years many of the issues have been shipped. His cowherd is uniform and doesn't look like a collection of all different types and sizes.

 

[sim.-ang.king]

A.I. and ET has made a lot of lazy breeders. Just pick some big named bulls, buy some big named donors, and go to town.
I prefer the hard way of doing it, but I'm also broke...so I guess that might have something to do with it.

 

[kentuckyguy]

Curious. What "testing"?

Them couple 5 generation deals started with a commercial Angus cow and a Hereford x Angus cow. Would have had to test for every Angus and Hereford defect to get to trait track "green"

I'm looking at breeding up to purebred Simmental but hadn't realized this was necessary. What's the cost of having this testing done?

 

[Till-Hill]

Curious. What "testing"?

Them couple 5 generation deals started with a commercial Angus cow and a Hereford x Angus cow. Would have had to test for every Angus and Hereford defect to get to trait track "green"

I'm looking at breeding up to purebred Simmental but hadn't realized this was necessary. What's the cost of having this testing done?

starting with commercial cows? Testing for pretty much every know Angus defect would run I'd guess $100 or more a head?

 

[kentuckyguy]

Ok so if I'm running all black commercial cows that have been bred angus for 20 years that would be the only tests they would have to run?

Are they able to use blood to give you a EPD profile from the commercial cows so you have a idea of the calf's EPD's?

 

[Till-Hill]

I'd call simmental association and talk to them about it. I just knew it wasn't worth the money and time if I did find some carriers.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Here is a list of prices - scroll down & you will find the Genetic Defect DNA costs.
http://www.simmental.org/site/userimage ... ion_FM.pdf
I scrolled around the site and I could not find a specific page telling you what/how you need to test commercial cows for upgrading. When I started upgrading, there were no known Genetic Defects that needed to be tested for. Now, I know Angus, Chi, Shorthorn, Maine, etc have listed defects that need to be tested for.
Once a dam is tested, she doesn't need to be tested again, so she can produce registerable half blood calves each year.
For those that have registered half blood Simmental calves out of commercial cows, what is the process? Do you send in the paper work to register and then they require DNA testing?
Sounds stupid for me to be asking, but I have been PB for so long, I don't know the procedure.

 

[Bright Raven]

Here is a list of prices - scroll down & you will find the Genetic Defect DNA costs.
http://www.simmental.org/site/userimage ... ion_FM.pdf
I scrolled around the site and I could not find a specific page telling you what/how you need to test commercial cows for upgrading. When I started upgrading, there were no known Genetic Defects that needed to be tested for. Now, I know Angus, Chi, Shorthorn, Maine, etc have listed defects that need to be tested for.
Once a dam is tested, she doesn't need to be tested again, so she can produce registerable half blood calves each year.
For those that have registered half blood Simmental calves out of commercial cows, what is the process? Do you send in the paper work to register and then they require DNA testing?
Sounds stupid for me to be asking, but I have been PB for so long, I don't know the procedure.

I don't know either. Maybe Fire Sweep does. It seems like I went through this in one case. It is initiated by ASA. When you submit a registration request, if it requires a test for a genetic defect, they will provide notification before the registration is accepted.

 

[kentuckyguy]

I have looked at the ASA website a lot here lately and can't find a definitive answer. I wanna make sure I'm making the right decisions from the start and not causing myself more headaches down the road.

I'm sure someone here will come along that has some experience with this.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Here is the latest DNA pricing info:
New Genetic Condition Panel Pricing
"The Genetic Conditions Panel is undergoing changes to include all 7 of the genetic defects tracked by the American Simmental Association. These defects are: AM, NH, CA, DD, OS, PHA, and TH. The new Genetic Conditions Panel will only be available with GGP-LD or GGP-HD testing and the add on price for the panel will be $25. If the animal is not undergoing a GGP-LD or GGP-HD test, then defect testing will be $25 per defect. If requesting the genetic conditions panel after a GGP-LD or GGP-HD test is complete, then the testing will be billed at single defect rates, which is $25 per defect"

But, I still can't find out how you know whether you need to test and for what???

 

[bse]

try this if your looking to test commercial cattle angus.org/AGI/CommercialTests.aspx

 

[gizmom]

Till
Take a look at a Schaff sale catalog, if you want to see multi generations by the same breeder.

Gizmom

 

[Till-Hill]

Till
Take a look at a Schaff sale catalog, if you want to see multi generations by the same breeder.

Gizmom

Yes I've very familiar with them. And somehow on a lot of the bulls they keep their inbreeding very low. Bunch of cow families but must take many hours to mate cows correctly!

 

[Bestoutwest]

I'm not a Angus breeder, but you really need to think a lot of your cattle to feel you can raise better cattle than you can buy. Most if not all small operations are replicators. Most folks can't afford $10k to $100k to buy a quality cow as a starting point for their herd.

No way in heck can I afford a $10K, $20K bull, probably couldn't swing a $5K bull with our super small herd of cattle. However, I can swing $20 semen and someday, if I can convince the wife to give it a shot, I can afford $500 embryos. I think anyone that believes that's the way to start is going to be pushing manure balls uphill for a long time. I've seen a lot of those $100K animals, and honestly they don't do much for me. The brand and papers do a lot more to sell those animals than their appearance does. And there's no way that those animals will pay for themselves when you're a little guy. I've done the math, and I just can't make it work, but I can see how if you had a big production sale AND a lot to background calves that some of those animals would really put some decent money in your pocket IF they panned out like their EPD's say they will.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Bestoutwest - you are so right. So many "new" "breeders" think they can buy into the "game". Nope. You have to pay hard knocks & "earn" a reputation before you can sell high dollar cattle.