Angus Bloodline Super X

[SEC]

We had a son of Super X 745 that we just lost the other day. His mother was an awesome cow that had raised herdbulls before.
I had 1st seen Super X calves at Connelly's in MT and they were pretty easy to look at there, stout, well muscle bulls, large scrotal they were easy to like. Those cattle had structure that would blow most other bulls out of the water. Not any bull do I know that is as good for making the feet and legs right as he did.
This son we have is similar, doesn't pass the same muscle pattern. But they are right on! Their structure is bang on, he will fix structure like no other bull I know. I am not saying that because we owned a chunk of him but I have been looking for a bull that would correct structure for a very long time, hard to find.

The Super X daughters were average for milk, the udders are excellent. Easy doing but not so easy doing like Alberda Traveler that they make won't milk properly.

His milk number is +15lbs, so for the EPD guru's that wouldn't be high enough.

Thankfully we collected some semen on our bull before he went on!

 

[Scotty]

SEC it would be OK for some and not for others. Match your EPDs with ones that will help add value. I bet he had a high $E value. 12 + or so. Some time that milk is not all its cracked up to be. Some times you need alot of help. IMO. DOC HARRIS who I feel is a true GURU on the subject will tell you to go up, but not to far. Really be carefull now not to speek for him though.


Scotty

 

[SEC]

I hear you Scotty, I don't think there is anything wrong with average milk. Especially in the tough climates!

I don't pay very much attention to the EPD's BWT, MILK and Scrotal are the three I care about and after that you would have a hard time convincing me that with EPD's we are making progress!

 

[Aero]

I hear you Scotty, I don't think there is anything wrong with average milk. Especially in the tough climates!

I don't pay very much attention to the EPD's BWT, MILK and Scrotal are the three I care about and after that you would have a hard time convincing me that with EPD's we are making progress!

why do you rank SC with BW and Milk?

even if the SC EPD is -1.00, unless you have cows that are very negative for SC, tey will be nowhere near the danger zone of failing a BSE. most peope seem to have yrlg scrotal size at 34-35 and the min for BSE is 30. if you used a -2.00 SC EPD you should still be 2 or 3 cm from the minimum.

i really cant see Milk being in the same league as BW either, but that is a preference/input/$EN management decision.

 

[SEC]

I chose those EPD's as the only important ones for many reasons.

Bwt- we need to land these bulls in a range which is optimal for the buyers and that seems to be 80-95lbs. After that they will sort through them differently. Or at least customers have reported that a moderate middle of the road bwt is something they watch.

SC- I have used negative scrotal bulls before and it has bitten me in the ass. I don't believe that SC and fertility are directly linked in daughters, yet for sons. With a bigger SC they will have a bigger bank for when breeding is intensive. Buyers also get very sticky on bulls after they are below 34cm, everyone likes to see 36 cm at 1 YEAR of age, not at the bull sale. If they are smaller than 34, their value drops substantially!

MILK- this I teeter on a little bit. But again customers will start to balk on cattle when their numbers are lower (below single digits) I like milk and our pasture and environment can handle heavier milking cows, everything comes at a cost.

 

[Aero]

I chose those EPD's as the only important ones for many reasons.

Bwt- we need to land these bulls in a range which is optimal for the buyers and that seems to be 80-95lbs. After that they will sort through them differently. Or at least customers have reported that a moderate middle of the road bwt is something they watch.

SC- I have used negative scrotal bulls before and it has bitten me in the ass. I don't believe that SC and fertility are directly linked in daughters, yet for sons. With a bigger SC they will have a bigger bank for when breeding is intensive. Buyers also get very sticky on bulls after they are below 34cm, everyone likes to see 36 cm at 1 YEAR of age, not at the bull sale. If they are smaller than 34, their value drops substantially!

MILK- this I teeter on a little bit. But again customers will start to balk on cattle when their numbers are lower (below single digits) I like milk and our pasture and environment can handle heavier milking cows, everything comes at a cost.

thank you for having a reason for your criteria. much better than the "my buddy said i need this" rationale.

 

[jscunn]

I agree with SEC on the SC thing. I personally look for bulls in the 36 to 39 cm range at one year. One of our bulls has to breed 45 cows in 90 days so he needs a big bank. :lol:
If they get over 40cm I am concerned about fat in the scrotum and have to defer to someone more knowledgeable about detecting that.

 

[Aero]

excessively large can contribute to more injury and semen damage.

 

[seth]

There is nothing more frustrating than devloping a good bull and finding that he only measures 32 or 33 cm at a year. That is simply not enough! To suggest that 30 cm is enough to pass a BSE is missing the point. We see buyer resistance at anything under 35 cm. The testes are the factory that produces semen, small factory, less semen, fewer cows bred. Also it has been proven that scrotal circumference in bulls can be related to fertility in their daughters. The correlation is not nearly as high as it is for the scrotal circumference of his sons but it does exist. I too, have used bulls with lower EPDs for sc and never again. The cost of devloping a good bull only to have him relegated to freezer beef is just too high.

If anybody would like to know which bulls have "bitten us in the ass" in this regard just let me know.

You can make a stronger case for using a bull with average milk (especially in harsher climates and low input environments), but not for sc, unless it is completely terminal.

 

[lakading]

What are the prerequisits for being tabbed a bloodline? Not being sarcastic, just curious as to what makes something an official bloodline.

 

[houstoncutter]

Whoa................................Hold the press, did I just read L4Angus right!!!!! He doesnt think his Angus bull could hold up to the hot, humid, skeeter ridden climate of Louisana......

 

[Jovid]

Whoa................................Hold the press, did I just read L4Angus right!!!!! He doesnt think his Angus bull could hold up to the hot, humid, skeeter ridden climate of Louisana......

Myabe it's from the wrong bloodline.....or is it the name :lol2:

 

[seth]

I don't think there is an official definition for the term bllodline. IMO you can use the term bloodline when talking about the sons and grandsons (or daughters and granddaughters) of a particular animal. Can't it be that simple?

Also, I would be interested in comments or opinions on the sc of the First Edition sons. I was interested in using him but his sc EPD scared me off. What do you think?

 

[ccc]

Seth,
I would not worry about his scrotal epd it's fine. The bulls only draw back in my opinion is his IMF. I saw G13 Encore the other day and he had plenty of everything.

 

[la4angus]

Seth,
I would not worry about his scrotal epd it's fine. The bulls only draw back in my opinion is his IMF. I saw G13 Encore the other day and he had plenty of everything.

I'm not going to sit here and brag about him, as I own part of him, but IMO First Edition has plenty SC, and I agree his IMF is a little shy of the average in Angus, but it is still higher than most other breeds. I saw Encore in Denver a couple weeks ago and will have to agree that he didn't look like he lacked in much.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

SEC it would be OK for some and not for others. Match your EPDs with ones that will help add value. I bet he had a high $E value. 12 + or so. Some time that milk is not all its cracked up to be. Some times you need alot of help. IMO. DOC HARRIS who I feel is a true GURU on the subject will tell you to go up, but not to far. Really be carefull now not to speek for him though.


Scotty

Scotty - I agree with you in principle regarding Milk EPD's, however I would modify the statement a little - such as - The tendency for breeders to concentrate on Milk EPD's on escalating higher and higher CAN become a Pandora's Box. The important factor to remember here is that Milk EPD's are that part of a CALF'S WEANING WEIGHT (pounds) which is attributed to milk and mothering ability contributed by a Sires DAUGHTERS - compared to other sires. ALSO, high(er) Milk EPD's (In MY Opinion) can have a negative effect on the Phenotype relating to hindquarter thickness and depth over a period of time.

Shorter explanation: by using a bull whose Milk EXPECTED PROGENY DIFFERENCE is, for example, +20 , does NOT necessarily mean that all of his daughters will wean calves weighing 20 pounds MORE than their PREVIOUS calves - or - that if her daughter is bred to a bull the next time with a milk EPD of +25 that her calf from that mating will COMPOUND the pounds resulting in a calf weighing 45 pounds - and on and on ad infinitum. We all know that many other factors contribute to the ultimate dressed weight hanging on the rail, such as differences in environment, management and nutrition. But in the meantime, while the breeder has been happily anticipating higher and better milking dams resulting from the matings to higher Milk EPD' bulls - his cow-herd phenotype is beginning to look like Jersey's, and carcass traits can go down the tubes!

I feel that the approach is MODERATION - MODERATION - MODERATION - in ALL aspects of our breeding programs. Successful breeding results demands meticulous attention to details of ALL traits to prevent losing what has been gained in the past. Almost every beef breed of significance has experienced the catastrophic results of losing focus on critical traits to the detriment of the breed and to the breeders themselves. For this reason - optimal cross-breeding is essential for a balancing "formula", if you will, to maintain EPD equilibrium.

Cross-breeding is not the ONLY way - - but it is ONE way.

DOC HARRIS

 

[dph]

Houston: perhaps what la was meaning, wasn't that the bull wouldn't hold up, but the potential on missing out on some substantial income if an injury occurred. Would you want the responsibility of looking after a bull 6 other guys owned and were hoping to sell semen out of? I don't believe I would.

 

[MikeC]

Whoa................................Hold the press, did I just read L4Angus right!!!!! He doesnt think his Angus bull could hold up to the hot, humid, skeeter ridden climate of Louisana......

Bluetongue is a serious disease transmitted by insects. I would say 100% of southern cattle are exposed to it.

Although it doesn't keep semen out of the domestic market, it could hurt the chances of exporting.

 

[la4angus]

la4, you must have alotta friends and not enough enemies, cause ya don't seem ta think twice about making more of the latter.

I have plenty of both. What about you??

 

[buckaroo_bif]

la4, you must have alotta friends and not enough enemies, cause ya don't seem ta think twice about making more of the latter.

I have plenty of both. What about you??

:lol2: