American Black Hereford Association

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Herefords.US":25mmnmpk said:
back2dfuture":25mmnmpk said:
no slip... just typing to fast while in the office....I understand the closed herdbooks... but so many ppl seem angry... Does anyone know how the AHA feels, since its there breed & name that's being used..

Perhaps it's the citizens of Hereford that should be PO'ed:

herefordshire.gif

Right On !!!! Right On... Well I'm not knocking the ABHA... Triple L ranch is located in Mexia & that where my family is from and where I will be raising my cattle so I'm actually going to try stop by their place and have a convo with him.. Since my uncle passed away 2 mths ago, I don't have anyone to talk to face to face & bounce Ideas off of..
 
reminds me of the little old lady neighbor of mine from england, ""dead now"" she loved to see my horned hereford bull's ....she would say,,, i love the eerrfordshires
 
The closed herdbook purists getting their tail over their back over the use of the "Hereford" name by the ABHA might carry more weight if there wasn't any "Hereford" cattle in that herdbook that actually carried less pure Hereford blood than the purebred Black Herefords do! :deadhorse: And a high percentage (and growing) of contemporary Hereford breeders are currently using descendants of them. The "breeding up" of Herefords and Angus just had a little more deceptive method.

Titan_23D.jpg


But then, some of the Black Herefords will trace back to him too.

George
 
J and N black hereford in Kansas, has a ad for their 20th annual production sale, in the gulf coast cattleman... ad says......... Better Color..Better Carcass.. Better Hereford...
 
Herefords.US":3vz1apwr said:
The closed herdbook purists getting their tail over their back over the use of the "Hereford" name by the ABHA might carry more weight if there wasn't any "Hereford" cattle in that herdbook that actually carried less pure Hereford blood than the purebred Black Herefords do! :deadhorse: And a high percentage (and growing) of contemporary Hereford breeders are currently using descendants of them. The "breeding up" of Herefords and Angus just had a little more deceptive method.

Titan_23D.jpg


But then, some of the Black Herefords will trace back to him too.

George

I don't care if they want to use the "Hereford" name. But some of their claims are a little questionable at this point, considering their limited gene pool and looking at some of the cattle pictured in their ads. I also question the hide color push when some of my red baldies perform as well as my black baldies in the feedlot and on the rail.

I don't want to hijack this thread, but as far as Titan, I would question your claim of a high percentage of breeders using descendants. You may have not qualms with using his genetics and that is fine since the AHA didn't nip that in the bud at that time. That is your choice and that of a lot of breeders in your area. I am ok with that. But I would venture to say there are a lot of breeders who avoid those genetics along with P-G and other bloodlines of questionable genetics. I don't think their efforts to try and keep pure genetics should be questioned just because the AHA didn't do their job due to politics.
 
Elder Statesman":36uvimsy said:
I don't care if they want to use the "Hereford" name. But some of their claims are a little questionable at this point, considering their limited gene pool and looking at some of the cattle pictured in their ads. I also question the hide color push when some of my red baldies perform as well as my black baldies in the feedlot and on the rail.

I don't want to hijack this thread, but as far as Titan, I would question your claim of a high percentage of breeders using descendants. You may have not qualms with using his genetics and that is fine since the AHA didn't nip that in the bud at that time. That is your choice and that of a lot of breeders in your area. I am ok with that. But I would venture to say there are a lot of breeders who avoid those genetics along with P-G and other bloodlines of questionable genetics. I don't think their efforts to try and keep pure genetics should be questioned just because the AHA didn't do their job due to politics.

For the record, I own no cattle that have Titan 23D in their registered pedigree. But with the widespread recent use of Revolution, Excel, Progress, etc. and the use of Hereford bulls in the past like Summit, Horizon, Prime Time, 7777, 774, and others, the percentage of breeders who are not using 23D descendants has decreased quite a bit in the last 10 years. It is my NTBHO that the development of the genetic test for the dilutor gene has made the use of those genetics far more acceptable.

My point is: People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones!
 
Seems like successful new products succeed in the market place because they fill a previously unmet need.

Is there really a need for a "Black Hereford"?

One can always cross an Angus and a true Hereford to get a baldy.

The sale premium for a black hide over a similar quality animal of another hide color seems to be fading quickly as cattle are in short supply. Good quality Red Angus or red or black Baldies are bringing top prices at many sales. Quality true Herefords are in demand to add heterosis to other breeds...

Personally I am looking forward to establishing a herd of more or less pure Hereford cows and then experimenting to see if occasionally putting a Simmi or other bull on them really produces a better calf (than sticking with a registered Hereford bull) in my particular oddball system without negative side effects on calving ease or disposition etc.

I believe virtually all product areas of the future are moving towards higher true quality and greater value rather than just bells and whistles and marketing hype such as hide color.

Why does the world need a "Black Hereford"? If there really is no unmet need that a Black Hereford would satisfy then the market place will pass judgement. If there IS a real need in the beef industry for a Black Hereford then the breed will eventually take hold. Time will tell. jmho.

Jim
 
That is what Jobulls wrote this to me in PM.

"I don't really care if you would use our bulls. I have read a lot of your posts, and you talk about belted cows, and having dairy breeds in beef cows. Our buyers are all in the Western United States. Most of them range on BLM or Forest. The cows have to be able to travel and fend for themselves. Our cattle run in similar circumstances. We run on the BLM on the high desert from October through February. We then run on the Forest at 10,000 feet from June through October. Short, stubby cows do not do very well out here. The really large framed cows do not do very well either. Our BLM ground is over 20 miles by 15 miles, and is full of deep canyons, and the mountain ground is even more rough.

Most people out here run a Hereford and Angus base herd, because the Gelbveih, Simmental, and Charolais are not efficient and eat too much hay in the winter. No one runs cows with ears out here, because it is too cold for Brahman cattle. They then use the Gelbveih, Simmental, and Charolais breeds as terminal crosses, along with some Chianina (a few run Balancers, and Salers). If there is any dairy in cows, they will not breed back, because the cows are not sitting in pastures, and the extra milk takes too much energy.

Our family runs 200 head of purebred cows, and between 50 and 100 commercial cows (depending on the year). We have used the Hereford as our base on purebreds and we have used Chiangus and Simmentals as terminal crosses. We have experimented with keeping some purebred Simmentals and some power genetic Chiangus. The cows were too large, and did not range well. This seems to be the consensus with our buyers. I think that the studies show that you can raise approximately 22 of the terminal breeds I mentioned to 30 Herefords or 32 Angus (on the same ground).

I am not sure what you run your 30 head on, but it sounds like a little different set up. I know that you use primarily Black Angus, and that is a smart thing to do. I think I read that you run some Red Angus and some Hereford crosses. I still think that the Black Hereford/Black Angus F1 cross would be a good base cow for you. If you kept in this two way rotation, then you should get 67% of maximum heterosis. If you used this base and then added one of the terminal crosses above, then you could get up to 86% of maximum heterosis (however, you have to follow the proper percentages on the crossing). I have used this on our commercial cows as mentioned above with the Angus/Hereford base and the terminal breeds. It does add pounds without inefficient, large framed cows. It also keeps the docility of the Hereford.

All of our Black Hereford bulls are always reserved by 10 months, so we will be ok if you don't purchase from us, but please keep watching the breed. Most of our buyers are repeat, so we must be doing something right. Our bulls averaged 82 lbs. at birth and 650 lbs. at weaning, which is really good considering how hard the cows are working. On cows kept in pastures we usually get up in the 750+ lb. weaning weights. Our cows have to breed back or they are culled, and we will not see many of them for four months at a time."


Anyone want to challenge him on few things in the statement?
 
Taurus":2h3075ir said:
That is what Jobulls wrote this to me in PM.
Anyone want to challenge him on few things in the statement?
I would sooner challenge the integrity of someone who makes a private message a public message.
 
Coco Donatella":3n6ocb00 said:
Taurus":3n6ocb00 said:
That is what Jobulls wrote this to me in PM.
Anyone want to challenge him on few things in the statement?
I would sooner challenge the integrity of someone who makes a private message a public message.
In this situation, he answered same thing in this thread and also in PM. Why send me a private message if he's already answered my question in this thread?
 
Taurus":2a0rxmuk said:
Coco Donatella":2a0rxmuk said:
Taurus":2a0rxmuk said:
That is what Jobulls wrote this to me in PM.
Anyone want to challenge him on few things in the statement?
I would sooner challenge the integrity of someone who makes a private message a public message.
In this situation, he answered same thing in this thread and also in PM. Why send me a private message if he's already answered my question in this thread?
You should have asked him via PM.
 
Isomade":1w43vmx2 said:
You should have asked him via PM.
I know that it was a dick move on my part and I apologize for it. I'm just not sure about these claims that other breeds do poorly on ranges or their feed effectively when it comes to black hereford v.s other breeds. I thought that some of you guys can perhaps explaining about why other breeds do poorly on ranges or eating too much hay than black herefords.
 
After rereading this post I have a simple question. What advantage does a Black Hereford bring to the table...If its just to have a black product, their are now a lot of now black breeds to do that. With I might add much larger gene pools. If its to get the white face, wouldnt that not be achieved better with a red Hereford???????
 
Taurus pulled an interesting move in turning a private message public, but to each his own.

As for the message that he posted, my point is that Angus and Hereford crosses do extremely well on our range. It might be different for others, but they work well for breeders in the West, especially when mixed with a terminal cross.

As for the question above about why black over red, it is so you can satisfy the Certified Angus Beef program, which does not necessarily have anything to do with being Angus. The requirements are that the animal be 51% Black and :

Modest or higher degree of marbling
Medium or fine marbling texture
"A" maturity
10 to 16 square-inch ribeye area
Less than 1,000-pound hot carcass weight
Less than 1-inch fat thickness
Moderately thick or thicker muscling
No hump on the neck exceeding 5 cm (2")
Practically free of capillary rupture
No dark cutting characteristics.

That is the same reason they have taken most of the other breeds Black. Obviously there are advantages with using Herefords. There are a lot of them in the U.S. Many keep saying there are better breeds. That is all relative. Many breeders are using Herefords. I am sure many people said, " why do we need a Black Simmental," a few years ago. Now look at the breed. No one questions the gene pool or quality.

The real question is why not turn the Hereford black? The Association is not closed. It is constantly ingesting new Hereford and Angus genetics. In fact it wants members to use more and more of the Hereford lines, but does want members to be selective for other traits besides color. My uncle and I go back and forth on this same subject. My uncle has 30 to 40 head of red bulls for sale if you are set on red. I will have 40 to 50 head of black bulls for sale next year if you want black. Similar lines, but different colors.

As stated above, the Hereford and Angus cows work well for us. I am not advocating that they work well for everyone. You should use whatever works for your situation. There is no perfect breed. Most breeds have some advantage or they would not be around. One interesting note is that this same discussion happened in the Hereford industry when they introduced polled cattle. Now polled Herefords are accepted. You can write what you want, but I think the Black Herefords will follow a similar path.
 
Basically all I'm taking away from this long thread is to NEVER PM Taurus
 
A little difference in comparing the acceptence of Horned / Polled herefords verses Red Herefords / Black Herefords...
Black herefords are still crossbreds and will never be introduced into the American Hereford Association record books,
thus the need for a Black Hereford association. To each his own.
 
Isomade":2yw57teo said:
I need an address of where to send my check. I got 97 WF Angus to register. I want in on the ground floor before this thing takes off like a rocket! :banana:

Heck I thought I was building a herd of black baldies and find out now I got a herd of black herefords. :cry2: I'm screwed if I try to sell'em.
 

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