Air lift water well brain pickin thread

[greybeard]

When the pump is running non-stop is the air comp?

No. Compressor kicks off when the float switch 'tells' it to. Otherwise, the storage/volume tank would run over. It never has.
(That tank is vented and not air tight even with access hatch screwed down tight.)
Looks about like this, just a poly tank, maybe a little skinnier than this one.

 

[Brute 23]

No. Compressor kicks off when the float switch 'tells' it to. Otherwise, the storage/volume tank would run over. It never has.
(That tank is vented and not air tight even with access hatch screwed down tight.)
Looks about like this, just a poly tank, maybe a little skinnier than this one.

View attachment 11834

Right. I just meant if you had a leak in a line they would both run together or at least a lot together.

Turn the air comp off and leave the submersible going with no water using appliances on. If the pump is running and the tank level doesnt drop it's also not an external leak and probably a bad switch.

If you kill the air comp and the submersible is going you should be able to look in the hatch and probably see water churning or some thing if there was a crack and blowing it back in the volume pot.

They need to by a pressure switch any way no matter if theirs is bad or not. That's some thing you keep a spare of at all times. They never go out during normal business hours.

 

[Ouachita]

Do they have a geothermal heat pump that uses the well? Those can be open or closed loop. Maybe something wonky with a valve, causing the loop to continually cycle.

 

[JJColvin]

I assume the pump is a centrifugal pump (as opposed to a positive displacement pump). Centrifugal pumps have a spinning impeller with variable flow rate as the discharge pressure changes. Positive displacement pumps produce a constant flow rate at whatever pressure is required to move the fluid (limited by motor hp and relief devices). You can close the discharge valve on a centrifugal pump and the flow will be zero. But it is still running and using electricity. Power used is variable with flow rate, but still uses some at zero flow. The term is that the pump is "dead headed". Producing max pressure, but zero flow. From the data, looks like the pump as it exists today in its installed condition has a deadhead of 35 psig. No flow at 35 psi. Not producing enough pressure to satisfy the pressure switch. Either because the suction is clogged or restricted or the pump is broken or worn out. Corroded or worn impeller on the pump maybe or maybe sucking air on the suction of the pump. Or maybe leaking on the pump discharge in the tank as you mentioned. Every centrifugal pump has a pump curve - a chart of pressure vs flow. Max pressure at min flow and min pressure at max flow. Pump will operate on that curve if it has adequate suction pressure, no restriction on the suction and in good condition. As pumps wear, the "internal bypass" around the impeller increases (think internal leakage). I have probably just added more confusion. Cracked discharge, worn out pump of clogged suction are possible for the problem. Just my thoughts.
If the pump runs without producing flow from the tank, the electrical energy will be converted to heat in the water.

Correct on everything you stated. Also a shut in or deadheaded centrifugal pump will let you know there is a problem because the heat build up will destroy the seals pretty quick as well as the motor will fail running under no load.

 

[Silver]

What was the final answer on this GB?

 

[Brute 23]

I'm curious why that is set up like that?

I've seen set ups like that for high sulfur zones so it can break out in the tank but other wise just drop a submersible in that baby and simplify it.

 

[hurleyjd]

Is the pressure tank one with a bladder in it of not. If so the bladder can go bad and let the pump run for ever or off and on. I would suspect there is a crack or hole in the pipe inside of the tank where the pump is. You might cut into the line from the pump to the pressure tank and install a ball valve. Then the water would be isolated in the tank if the pump still runs then that would indicate a crack or leak in the line inside of the tank. If it is a bladder type tank check the pressure above the valve with a tire air gauge.

 

[greybeard]

Odd this came back up today. I intended to go take another look at it but the neighbor told me it started working right so I never did, but just tonight, he told me it had started doing it again about a week or 2 ago and his elec bill was sky high.

I think JD may be correct about the line inside the tank. Evidently, this problem has existed since mid summer. Last years extreme cold, coupled with a long period of no electricity may have caused it.
The water in the storage tank never froze other than about an inch of ice on top. He would open a valve down on the output side, and draw off water for flushing their toilet and cooking. I surmise, that there is a footvalve in the bottom of the submersible pump and water stayed in both the pump and in the PVC line coming out of the pump. That pvc line may very well have frozen since it was exposed as he drew water out of the tank. Water coming out of a well here is the same constant ~70 deg year round.

We had warm weather all the way thru December 2021. In Jan, it started getting cold. It may be, that the line just above the pump but below the normal water level cracked last year. In warm weather, the crack opens because the water and the line are relatively warm, the line pressure never quite reaches the turnoff pressure and pump runs 24/7 but when it got cold not long after I posted this thread, the water in the tank decreases in temperature, the pipe contracts in diameter and the crack closes up enough for the system's pressure switch to start turning on and off. The crack would have to be below the water line or I would have seen it and heard it spraying when I looked at it.
The crack would have to be in the area where the yellow arrow with the black x indicates.



The reasoning I was given for this setup is for easy maintenance and cheaper operation. There is virtually nothing downhole to wear out. No pump to pull out of the bottom of the casing, no long electric cable to break or corrode. No high head of water to lift with a pump downhole so the pump inside the tank should last a lot longer. The pump should be drawing fewer amps because it is only charging a pressure tank that actually sits below it, instead of the pump having to lift water 130' or so AND providing pressure.

One of my other acquaintances here has the same setup, but he has a little Gould shallow well centrifugal pump sitting on the outside of his volume tank.

 

[Hippie Rancher]

make sure the submersible is properly rated for the pressure it is subject to. we had a similar set up for a much heavier duty situation but the "out put" pressure would vary depending on what we were doing with the pipe. we burnt 3 pumps before we figured out what was going on. to low pressure can mess a pump as bad as running dry or too much pressure. even my well guy didn't catch the problem so he ate 2 of those pumps.

this was a situation where we had one pump at 450 feet in a well, that filled a storage tank. then we had a second pump in the storage tank that was supposed to run either 100 feet up for a mile, 300 feet up hill for 3 miles, or 600 feet uphill for 6 miles to other storage tanks. the pumps were rated for the max pressure we were wanting but nobody really verified the minimums.

then there were the many instances of busted pipe because we (not me!) cheaped out and used PVC instead of PE. that is a rant for another time. just wanted to mention the pressure thing.

 

[Brute 23]

Odd this came back up today. I intended to go take another look at it but the neighbor told me it started working right so I never did, but just tonight, he told me it had started doing it again about a week or 2 ago and his elec bill was sky high.

I think JD may be correct about the line inside the tank. Evidently, this problem has existed since mid summer. Last years extreme cold, coupled with a long period of no electricity may have caused it.
The water in the storage tank never froze other than about an inch of ice on top. He would open a valve down on the output side, and draw off water for flushing their toilet and cooking. I surmise, that there is a footvalve in the bottom of the submersible pump and water stayed in both the pump and in the PVC line coming out of the pump. That pvc line may very well have frozen since it was exposed as he drew water out of the tank. Water coming out of a well here is the same constant ~70 deg year round.

We had warm weather all the way thru December 2021. In Jan, it started getting cold. It may be, that the line just above the pump but below the normal water level cracked last year. In warm weather, the crack opens because the water and the line are relatively warm, the line pressure never quite reaches the turnoff pressure and pump runs 24/7 but when it got cold not long after I posted this thread, the water in the tank decreases in temperature, the pipe contracts in diameter and the crack closes up enough for the system's pressure switch to start turning on and off. The crack would have to be below the water line or I would have seen it and heard it spraying when I looked at it.
The crack would have to be in the area where the yellow arrow with the black x indicates.

View attachment 12972

The reasoning I was given for this setup is for easy maintenance and cheaper operation. There is virtually nothing downhole to wear out. No pump to pull out of the bottom of the casing, no long electric cable to break or corrode. No high head of water to lift with a pump downhole so the pump inside the tank should last a lot longer. The pump should be drawing fewer amps because it is only charging a pressure tank that actually sits below it, instead of the pump having to lift water 130' or so AND providing pressure.

One of my other acquaintances here has the same setup, but he has a little Gould shallow well centrifugal pump sitting on the outside of his volume tank.

I'm sure they have their reasons but I'm amazed that would be considered simpler. The air pumps I'm familiar with that sit on surface usually run the same amount as a submersible so it's odd 2 pumps would be cheaper than one.

At a minimum though I agree with an external pump. You can buy those pumps at tsc for a couple hundred bucks ready to go. Most all o&g housing on location runs with them pumping from a storage tank through a water hose to the houses.

 

[Silver]

Yes, for a situation like this I would definitely be using a jet pump rather than a submersible.

 

[greybeard]

The air pumps I'm familiar with that sit on surface usually run the same amount as a submersible so it's odd 2 pumps would be cheaper than one.

There is only one pump in either of my friends' setups. One uses a submersible inside the volume tank and the other guy uses the little gould pump sitting outside his volume tank. They both do the same thing, supply pressure to a pressure tank.

The only other mechanical device in either one is the air compressor. A small 1 cylinder belt driven compressor that provides lift for the well bore.

 

[wbvs58]

Sounds like at this stage they would be best off spending a penny and let the people who installed it take a look.

Ken

 

[Brute 23]

There is only one pump in either of my friends' setups. One uses a submersible inside the volume tank and the other guy uses the little gould pump sitting outside his volume tank. They both do the same thing, supply pressure to a pressure tank.

The only other mechanical device in either one is the air compressor. A small 1 cylinder belt driven compressor that provides lift for the well bore.

I was counting air comp plus sub pump. From what I've seen they use that set up for dirty wells that would destroy a submersible.