AI VS Natural breeding

[rwtherefords]

I said winter! 5 rolls @ $20 a roll.

 

[dun]

I said winter! 5 rolls @ $20 a roll.

They don;t eat the rest of the year? Or do you buy them, breed the cows and sell them? Grass even as pasture has value, that bull could be a good cow and give you another calf for the same feed bill.

dun

 

[rwtherefords]

I don't keep my property stocked at the maximum level. The bull eats grass that would (most years) get cut by the bushhog anyway.

 

[rwtherefords]

I said winter! 5 rolls @ $20 a roll.

They don;t eat the rest of the year? Or do you buy them, breed the cows and sell them? Grass even as pasture has value, that bull could be a good cow and give you another calf for the same feed bill.

dun

Ok, Dun, let's do it your way. Factor in the price of 2 calves over the same period of time. I'd still like to have a financial comparison of the 2 scenarios. AI'ing my 25 registered cows vs. a Bull (Sorry, that would be AI'ing 26 cows vs. 25 w/bull).

 

[rwtherefords]

Ok, I've done some math base on 6M Ranch's post. Check me, and let me know if I've done something wrong.

Inputs
26 cows ( per Dun's input)
$50 per AI Tech visit
80% success ratio
$10 per head AI Tech Charge
$25 per Straw of Semen
$75 Certificate Fee for Registration - Only register females

Results - 1 year
80% success rate means 6 cows won't take the first time.
$100 AI Tech visits (2 required, Accept 100% success 2nd try)
$320 AI Tech charge per cow (26 the first time & 6 the second)
$800 Semen (26 straws the first time & 6 the second)
$900 12 Registration certificate fees (12 heifers, 14 steers)

$2120 Total costs for 1 year - AI Route

$4240 Total costs for 2 years ( used 2 year total for comparison because if you use a bull you have an animal to sell at the end of 2 years to offset costs)

I didn't include vaccination costs or any other costs that would be the same whether you used an AI Tech or a bull. They cancel each other out. Is this right so far?

 

[6M Ranch]

Another two cents. The registration costs would only be a factor if you register the cattle. I don't want to argue the point of quality, but if someone has a bull of the same quality as CA Future Direction for example, you better start selling some semen. Around here, $1500 isn't going to buy you a real good bull. Closer to $3000 would be more like it. It still won't compare to 878, 1407, BR Midland, etc. These are Angus bulls so the names might not be significant to you. I just bought another clean-up bull, because I only AI the first time. He's a full brother to KG Dakota, but I still don't think he's equal to the original. Maybe some day. I don't AI because it's cheaper, I AI so that I have access to better genetics then I can afford. We also raise club calves, so it's easier to buy Heatseeker semen, then to purchase another bull. You also didn't list the possibility of the bull dieing, getting injured, stolen, lost, or just not being viable as a breeder. As someone stated earlier, he's also not proven.

 

[dun]

Ok, I've done some math base on 6M Ranch's post. Check me, and let me know if I've done something wrong.

Inputs
26 cows ( per Dun's input)
$50 per AI Tech visit
80% success ratio
$10 per head AI Tech Charge
$25 per Straw of Semen
$75 Certificate Fee for Registration - Only register females

Results - 1 year
80% success rate means 6 cows won't take the first time.
$100 AI Tech visits (2 required, Accept 100% success 2nd try)
$320 AI Tech charge per cow (26 the first time & 6 the second)
$800 Semen (26 straws the first time & 6 the second)
$900 12 Registration certificate fees (12 heifers, 14 steers)

$2120 Total costs for 1 year - AI Route

$4240 Total costs for 2 years ( used 2 year total for comparison because if you use a bull you have an animal to sell at the end of 2 years to offset costs)

I didn't include vaccination costs or any other costs that would be the same whether you used an AI Tech or a bull. They cancel each other out. Is this right so far?

I guess thenumbers look right, not much of a whiz on math. I did a little research and found it astounding that people charge as much for Hereford semen certificates as they do.
Does that mean you'll buy a $3000-$3500 bull? Except pn the feedlot it seems that the value of a calf sired by Feltons whoever would sell for more then shcartz whoever.
But we all have different ways of looking at it. In our case if we did register calves we wouldn;t register every one of the heifers no matter who they're sired by, certificates for Red Angus are substantially lower in cost and I do the AI myself.

dun

 

[rwtherefords]

The registration costs would only be a factor if you register the cattle.

What's the point of owning & raising registered cattle if you don't register them?

I don't AI because it's cheaper, I AI so that I have access to better genetics then I can afford.

6M, I'm the one who said cost was an issue to me. If you read below you'll see that you were the one who said the cost wasn't expensive and that it shouldn't be a factor. Now that I'm reviewing the costs, you claim to be seeking superior genetics.

Cost isn't expensive. More work, but cost shouldn't be a factor.

Then if you buy a new bull every two years, the costs could be cheaper by AI'ing.

I just bought another clean-up bull, because I only AI the first time.

Since you're still purchasing & keeping a bull, how can you claim that the costs of AI'ing are cheaper? You still have all the costs associated with owning a bull with the AI'ing fees on top. That cannot possibly be cheaper!

You also didn't list the possibility of the bull dieing, getting injured, stolen, lost, or just not being viable as a breeder.

That's true, but I also didn't list the host of things that can go wrong with the AI'ing process either. For the purpose of comparison, I assumed success on the part of the bull and the AI Tech as well. Both have risks.

Around here, $1500 isn't going to buy you a real good bull. Closer to $3000 would be more like it.

Ok, I assume that your clean-up bull is a $3000 bull then. If you didn't AI, your bull would easily handle 25 cows. At the end of 2 years you'd get $1000 of your purchase price back. So you'd be out $2000 for your breeding program. Since I was reminded that you could have an extra cow in the pasture if you didn't have a bull, the costs for feed, meds, worming, wintering, etc. are a wash. That means that at the end of 2 years your breeding program would cost you $2000 and the price of 2 additional calves (~$1200). After adjusting for your corrections about AI'ing, You'd still have the $2000 loss on your bull with about $3500 additional AI costs. Also, you don't get the price of the 2 additional calves since you keep a clean-up bull instead of an extra cow.

It's sure a reasonable explanation to me if you think the "superior genetics" you get by AI'ing is worth ~$3500 every 2 years on 25 cows. I just can't see how it's nearly as cheap as owning a bull, which is what I thought you were claiming in your earlier post.

 

[rwtherefords]

I guess thenumbers look right, not much of a whiz on math. I did a little research and found it astounding that people charge as much for Hereford semen certificates as they do.
Does that mean you'll buy a $3000-$3500 bull? Except pn the feedlot it seems that the value of a calf sired by Feltons whoever would sell for more then shcartz whoever.
But we all have different ways of looking at it. In our case if we did register calves we wouldn;t register every one of the heifers no matter who they're sired by, certificates for Red Angus are substantially lower in cost and I do the AI myself.

dun

Thanks for the feedback Dun. Like I said earlier, I'm trying to learn something here. It just seemed like some of the claims being made didn't make sense. That's why I put the "pencil" to it. I certainly agree that people have all different kinds of perspectives, and what's right for one isn't necessarily right for all. I also agree that the price of Hereford semen certificates doesn't encourage AI'ing Herefords. I think that's part of the reason for the success the Angus people have had in developing their breed. Reasonable pricing encourages wider use and distribution, and as a result, the best bulls affect far more offspring. That can only benefit the breed by accelerating breed improvement.

 

[dun]

It just seemed like some of the claims being made didn't make sense. That's why I put the "pencil" to it. I certainly agree that people have all different kinds of perspectives, and what's right for one isn't necessarily right for all. I also agree that the price of Hereford semen certificates doesn't encourage AI'ing Herefords. I think that's part of the reason for the success the Angus people have had in developing their breed. Reasonable pricing encourages wider use and distribution, and as a result, the best bulls affect far more offspring. That can only benefit the breed by accelerating breed improvement.

I wonder if that's part of the reason that it takes so many yearsto get decent accuracys on Herefords vs Red Angus, Simmenthal, etc.
In an earlier post you mentioned why would you have registered cows if you weren;t going to register them, or something like that. Just as not all bulls are sire potential, not all heifers are dam potential. For those that are decent but not good enough to sell registerd progeny from, they can be kept as commercial cows and bred to strictly terminal sires. Although most of the older cows are registered, this is the first year that we've had any heifers that I felt were of the quality that their offspring should be registered. Some nicks work better then others, but I wouldn;t want to register and sell a heifer that isn;t of the quality that I would be willing to buy. Out of 6 heifers that could be registered this year, there are only 2 that I feel should be registered, 2 we kept as replacements and 2 went to the feedlot.

dun

 

[rwtherefords]

Dun, here are my comments about what you said concerning registration. First, I'm a small operation. Second, slightly over half of my herd is Black Angus. That means that the registered Hereford females I have must all be very good. Good females bred to an excellent bull should always produce an average or better calf (barring genetic defect, injury, etc.). In the AHA, if a female isn't registered, you don't get EPD's for her offspring. So, if you've got average or better dams bred to a bull with EPD's in the top 15% or better for the breed, and the heifer calves (before 4 months of age) appear to be delivering on their genetic potential, it's worth paying the $10 to register them. The AI route brings into play the semen certificate fee which, in your words, was astounding.

Now, bulls are a completely different story in my opinion. Sires affect every calf in a herd and set the direction your herd is going. In my opinion, they must truly be excellent specimens in order to be registered. I've only registered one bull in the past 2 years. If you'd like, check out 42638970 on the AHA web. If you click the graph view of his EPD's, I think you'll see why I registered him. There's a lot of performance history in his pedigree. What I was saying earlier was, if you can get a bull like this for $1500 and use him for 2 years on 25 cows, why would you pay an additional $3500 - $4500 just to AI? (I know you do your own AI work and wouldn't have those expenses, but most don't do their own AI work.) Do people think the genetics are really that much better? I think people are often times paying for name recognition in a pedigree.

 

[6M Ranch]

I guess I lost my train of thought as to where this post started, strictly economics. If assuming a herd of 25 head, you would looking at $250 for shots, $250 for AI costs, assume two trips by the tech, $100, and $25 semen, $625. Cost for the first 20 head assuming 80% success, $1225. Get the next 5 on the next cycle, $225, you won't have to sync again. Total cost $1450. Lot of assumptions, but bulls aren't 100% either. Cost of bull $2500, split over two years. Feed for two years, probably $600 unless you have pasture. Sell the bull at the end, 50 cents a pound here. You can move the numbers around a lot on either side to support each method. I guess my point initially was, it's probably not over $500 a year, or $20/calf difference between the two. A "name" bull could easily add $$$ just for the name to sale price of the calves. You're looking at just the cost of getting cows pregnant, not the additional benefit at sale time. Which should more than offset any extra costs. The other point, like Dun mentioned, you don't register all of your calves.

 

[C HOLLAND]

There are a lot of good points so far. If you only have 25 cows to breed each year and only use one bull then it may be as cheap as AI, but if you plan to expand and keep some heifers each year, what do you breed them to (ANOTHER BULL) you surely cant breed them back to that same bull. So did you add the cost of 2 bulls.

And one other small point, I am looking at select sires price sheet on semen for Angus Bulls (RITO 6I6, GAR EXPECTATION, GAR NEW DESIGN etc) all of these are top notch bulls and the semen only cost 18-20 per straw and the certs 20-35 each, if you are talking a commercial operation you dont need certs.

I also think if you plan to AI only then you should learn how and save some of the cost.

 

[rwtherefords]

There are a lot of good points so far. If you only have 25 cows to breed each year and only use one bull then it may be as cheap as AI, but if you plan to expand and keep some heifers each year, what do you breed them to (ANOTHER BULL) you surely cant breed them back to that same bull. So did you add the cost of 2 bulls.

And one other small point, I am looking at select sires price sheet on semen for Angus Bulls (RITO 6I6, GAR EXPECTATION, GAR NEW DESIGN etc) all of these are top notch bulls and the semen only cost 18-20 per straw and the certs 20-35 each, if you are talking a commercial operation you dont need certs.

I also think if you plan to AI only then you should learn how and save some of the cost.

The scenario given was changing bulls every 2 years. That means I used the bull last year to get this years heifer, and used the bull this year to breed her momma back. Next year I'll have a different bull (per the scenario).

You've brought up 2 additional good points. The price of certs and, for commercial cattle men, who needs certs. As I stated earlier, I believe the semen and cert price for Angus semen is partially the reason Angus is where it is today. Check out the semen and cert prices for the top registered Herefords. As far as who needs certs, I also stated earlier that I agreed that there are different ways of looking at this, and that there is no one "correct" path for everybody. I gave a response to the original post and had been questioned about some of the statements I made. I've been attempting to clarify the reasons for the choices I've made, and hopefully in the process helped someone to see a different perspective. The dialogue here has allowed me to learn some things as well, which was also a goal I stated earlier.

 

[C HOLLAND]

RWT, AMEN I like the forum for just this reason, to get other views and comments. There are several approaches to everything and its not the same for everyone.

I plan to AI my charolais heifers in Jan and use a bull I bought on my 2 angus cross heifers and brangus cow and I will probally sell him and get more replacement bred cows early next year. I will probally get a clean up bull later and just use him when I have to and sell all his calves.

 

[Anonymous]

How about a third choice - remember i am new here. Renting a Bull.

 

[rwtherefords]

How about a third choice - remember i am new here. Renting a Bull.

I have a friend at a nearby ranch going that route this spring. I'll be able to comment on that one based on his experience next fall. Sounds like it could be a good viable option.

 

[Angus Cattle Shower]

How about a third choice - remember i am new here. Renting a Bull.

.
That is still natural breeding, isn't it? I'm new too, but we AI most, and I do all of my work and studying, but I thought that if I said natural that covered it. Sorry of there was a mixup.

 

[la4angus]

How about a third choice - remember i am new here. Renting a Bull.

Renting a bull is not considered a seperate choice. I assume that the bull that you are renting would be breeding the cows. So Therefore this would be Natural Breeding.

 

[Anonymous]

How about a third choice - remember i am new here. Renting a Bull.

Renting a bull is not considered a seperate choice. I assume that the bull that you are renting would be breeding the cows. So Therefore this would be Natural Breeding.

sorry for the confusion I ws only thinking about the cost factor that was being discussed.