AI Bulls--comments appreciated

[Air gator]

Here's the thing about genetics: I don't believe if you breed ANYTHING you have an absolute split down the middle with 50 percent from each parent. I apologize for repeating myself but if you have 3 flushmates and do the genomic testing you will see they have different scores for different traits...including docility. Epds can give you an indication of what is POSSIBLE.
One bull calf I had an epd for YW in the 70s and his milk would have been about 21. With genomic testing his yearling epd went to 104 and his milk dropped to 8. The other thing is I would suggest you talk to people about EXT and/or Rampage.
What I hear about most of these bulls tagged with poor Docility scores is that some calves are "Dog Gentle" and some are (insert adjective of your choice). Charlo is a bull that people say can throw rank calves (I have no idea, my Charlo is in the tank)....look at the docility scores for the famous flush of SAV Raindance, Rainfall, Reign, President, etc. They don't all have the same docility score. Charlo's docility score is 2. Breed average used to be 12. Rainfall 23, Reign 17, Rainmaster 26, President 21, Raindance 13. So, if you took a chance using Charlo at a 2 for docility, only one calf would be below your cutoff of 17....and as you would expect...it might be the best calf of the flush.

 

[NEFarmwife]

Here's the thing about genetics: I don't believe if you breed ANYTHING you have an absolute split down the middle with 50 percent from each parent. I apologize for repeating myself but if you have 3 flushmates and do the genomic testing you will see they have different scores for different traits...including docility. Epds can give you an indication of what is POSSIBLE.
One bull calf I had an epd for YW in the 70s and his milk would have been about 21. With genomic testing his yearling epd went to 104 and his milk dropped to 8. The other thing is I would suggest you talk to people about EXT and/or Rampage.
What I hear about most of these bulls tagged with poor Docility scores is that some calves are "Dog Gentle" and some are (insert adjective of your choice). Charlo is a bull that people say can throw rank calves (I have no idea, my Charlo is in the tank)....look at the docility scores for the famous flush of SAV Raindance, Rainfall, Reign, President, etc. They don't all have the same docility score. Charlo's docility score is 2. Breed average used to be 12. Rainfall 23, Reign 17, Rainmaster 26, President 21, Raindance 13. So, if you took a chance using Charlo at a 2 for docility, only one calf would be below your cutoff of 17....and as you would expect...it might be the best calf of the flush.

Right. I try to explain it like your own offspring. I have a twin sister and most people don't even realize we're sisters. I prefer doing genetic testing for that reason. What did the cow inherit from who? And just because that cow took after her mom, doesn't mean her calves will also. That's why accuracy is important when looking at EPD's. Some sires can deliver his genetics powerfully to his progeny. Likewise with dam.

 

[Air gator]

I think the Genomic testing is better than epds...unless you have REALLY high accuracy (they may be on par).
I think genomic testing gives you a jumpstart on improving your herd.
I say this because I tested 3 flushmates.
The milk score helps you a lot. There are so many bulls now that seem to be way above breed average or way below breed average for milk. If you choose the wrong bull because the epds for milk are the same for two sisters but the reality is that one cow produces a lot more milk than the other one....you could have a calf who turns into a cow you can't afford to feed.
If you have 3 sisters, how long would it take you to decide which one will have the most growth, fertility, milk, etc?
It would take quite a while for you to wean a few calves...and you could blame the bull or your grass or whatever. It is a leap of faith to use genomic testing and time will tell if we are right to trust the science or whether or not we will realize we messed up somewhere.
And by the way, there must be a rule that they can't change a milk epd by more than a certain number.
Take a moment to pull up the Rutherford Ranches Dispersal catalog from the Archived sale catalogs. Go all the way to the back and for all the current bulls that they are selling semen on they have the Genomic scores listed, as well as the epds.
All these bulls have been tested the same way and have been given a score. But, the epds and the genomic scores are not uniform or calibrated the same way. You would think that every bull with a 25 for milk would have the same milk epd but from what I saw that is not the case. They have the chart where you can see the most the epds can change from one accuracy to another. I'm not sure if that isn't the problem with regards to how much epds can be changed based on genomic scores.

 

[kilroy60]

We have Peyton, Jindra Acclaim, and Black Magic in our tank that we will be using to flush in a few weeks.

 

[wbvs58]

Boondocks, I am currently using Baldridge Compass, I wanted to use Bronc but he became unavailable here so went with his flush mate Compass. We will have to compare notes when we get their calves. I have EF Commando calves on the ground now, 3-4 months of age and am very happy with them but was looking at his son Bronc for just a bit more frame though nothing wrong with the Commando calves, they are nice and thick.

Ken

 

[gizmom]

I am going to sample Coleman Engage I ordered 10 straws. I like his pedigree and look. He should work really well on heifers and leave some nice females.

Gizmom

 

[LCBulls]

I am going to sample Coleman Engage I ordered 10 straws. I like his pedigree and look. He should work really well on heifers and leave some nice females.

Gizmom

I think you will really like them. Some of the best heifer calves at Coleman's production sale were sired by Engage. They were really nice. We own the Dam of Engage and her calves are awesome. Definitely the best calves at our place.
We have a Full Sister and brother to Engage and the heifer is probably the best we've ever had. The Bull is really nice also.
Her natural Bull calf by Cowboy Up is Incredible. His 205 WW ratio was 126

 

[boondocks]

Boondocks, I am currently using Baldridge Compass, I wanted to use Bronc but he became unavailable here so went with his flush mate Compass. We will have to compare notes when we get their calves. I have EF Commando calves on the ground now, 3-4 months of age and am very happy with them but was looking at his son Bronc for just a bit more frame though nothing wrong with the Commando calves, they are nice and thick.

Ken

Sounds good, Ken. Hope yours do well!

 

[Luckiamute]

Wanted to update this thread. We ended up using Crouthamel Protocol, Baldridge Bronc, and Tehama Bonanza. We had excellent conception with Protocol (100% on first try), about average with Bronc, and Bonanza went 0/5 (no conceptions in 3 animals in good condition on TAI. Two we tried Bonanza again and still they didn't take; the third one we went with Bronc and she took). Now, of course it could be a lot of different factors but you better believe I will not use Bonanza again.

I am curious as to your reasons for using Crouthamel Protocol. I have been thinking of using him but don't know much about him other than what is in the Select Sires catalog and what I just read tonight in the Crouthamel Cattle Co. Fall Female Sale catalog. They seem to be marketing him as an "all purpose" sire who can produce bulls, steers for the feedlot and productive females.

 

[Son of Butch]

I was running some NET Profit value numbers which included cost of semen assuming a 66.6% conception rate.

IF you are a cow/calf producer who sells their entire calf crop and selects very few replacement heifers to keep.
GAR Prophet at $20 from Select Sires is hard to beat, he really should be on most commercial cow/calf producers
short list as a best buy.

 

[Chocolate Cow2]

E W A Peyton has an energy value of -$46.67. What will it take to feed his steer's in a feedlot? I'm not looking to be argumentative - but with a negative value like that would't more feed or a higher quality feed be required to meet growth potential? He sure fits my definition of terminal.

 

[NEFarmwife]

I was running some NET Profit value numbers which included cost of semen assuming a 66.6% conception rate.

IF you are a cow/calf producer who sells their entire calf crop and selects very few replacement heifers to keep.
GAR Prophet at $20 from Select Sires is hard to beat, he really should be on most commercial cow/calf producers
short list as a best buy.

I am interested in what numbers you ran. He has a good $W which is favorable to someone who sold at weaning but if you're wanting to sell calves that'll have the buyers beating down your door, I think there'd be others. We sell based on reputation and finished value. If we make them money, they are making us money.

For us, who feed out...I'd be looking at better carcass scores and high $F value. Which is what a buyer would want too, correct? Am I going about this all wrong?

 

[Son of Butch]

Yes, yes, yes COMMERCIAL cow/calf producers have individuals beating a path to buy their calves based on
finished value. :roll:

Buyers pay for what's in front of them based on market prices. All pay lip service to carcass quality, but seldom
will any ever pass premiums on to seller... it's always dock... dock... dock.

IF you retain ownership or are feeding out your own... then you are not a commercial cow/calf producer, are you?

 

[Son of Butch]

My point is as long as carcass value is average to above, it doesn't amount to a hill of beans for cow/calf producer
and not worth paying extra for it as their rate of return will be zero... or negative depending how much of a
premium you have to pay for it.

When you look at what matters (pounds weaned per cow exposed) and associated costs among angus bulls,
GAR Prophet is hard to beat.

 

[NEFarmwife]

Yes, yes, yes COMMERCIAL cow/calf producers have individuals beating a path to buy their calves based on
finished value. :roll:

Buyers pay for what's in front of them based on market prices. All pay lip service to carcass quality, but seldom
will any ever pass premiums on to seller... it's always dock... dock... dock.

IF you retain ownership or are feeding out your own... then you are not a commercial cow/calf producer, are you?

Actually, you are quite wrong. We (WHEN) we sold at weaning, always took premium over others at sale barn or sold right off the lot for a premium based on prior calves sold who did well on carcass and were told that directly. They were eager for more of ours because ours also made them money. If I am not mistaken, there are several on this board who receive the same buyers over and over based off quality.

 

[holm25]

I'd don't mind Bronc. Good calves. This is a Bronc heifer a relative had.. Not a bad heifer.. Maybe a little straight in her back legs looking st the picture but it could be the picture giving her that look...

https://i.postimg.cc/C52x6rBV/4212-C0-E ... 244-F1.jpg

 

[Son of Butch]

I was running some NET Profit value numbers which included cost of semen assuming a 66.6% conception rate.

IF you are a cow/calf producer who sells their entire calf crop and selects very few replacement heifers to keep.
GAR Prophet at $20 from Select Sires is hard to beat, he really should be on most commercial cow/calf producers
short list as a best buy.

He has a good $W which is favorable to someone who sold at weaning but if you're wanting to sell calves that'll have the buyers beating down your door, I think there'd be others. We sell based on reputation and finished value.

For us, who feed out...I'd be looking at better carcass scores and high $F value.

Why are you hatin' on GAR Prophet?

Good $W ??? He's Great!
He is 1 of only 2 bulls in the Entire Breed over $97 W and the only one CE 11 bw 1.3 (average) and .97 accuracy
On Grid his $G is top 4% and $QG top 1% with cw 46 top 25% and above average $F (40%)
Top 1% $QG Is not good enough for your reputation and finished value for feeding out?

I challenge you to name a better bull for a cow/calf producer than GAR Prophet at $20.

 

[NEFarmwife]

I was running some NET Profit value numbers which included cost of semen assuming a 66.6% conception rate.

IF you are a cow/calf producer who sells their entire calf crop and selects very few replacement heifers to keep.
GAR Prophet at $20 from Select Sires is hard to beat, he really should be on most commercial cow/calf producers
short list as a best buy.

He has a good $W which is favorable to someone who sold at weaning but if you're wanting to sell calves that'll have the buyers beating down your door, I think there'd be others. We sell based on reputation and finished value.

For us, who feed out...I'd be looking at better carcass scores and high $F value.

Why are you hatin' on GAR Prophet?

Good $W ??? He's Great!
He is 1 of only 2 bulls in the Entire Breed over $97 W and the only one CE 11 bw 1.3 (average) and .97 accuracy
On Grid his $G is top 4% and $QG top 1% with cw 46 top 25% and above average $F (40%)
Top 1% $QG Is not good enough for your reputation and finished value for feeding out?

I challenge you to name a better bull for a cow/calf producer than GAR Prophet at $20.

Challenge accepted...
https://bullsearch.absglobal.com/en-us/ ... ountry/222

 

[Son of Butch]

Edison not a bad choice... but
Gar Prophet $20 x 1.5 straws per calf weaned = $30
Edison $30 x 1.5 straws per calf weaned = $45
Advantage Prophet: $15 per calf

Prophet $W 97.18
Edison $W 75.42
Advantage Prophet $21.76
21.76 + 15 = $36.76 additional $ in your pocket for every calf sired by Prophet vs Edison
close, but no cigar

$QG
Prophet $55.45 top 1%
Edison $48.85 top 3%
Advantage Prophet although I don't believe you'd ever see the premium (only docks if below average)
The accuracy (.28) and heritability of $F are so low I hesitate considering that epd and I use it as tie breaker
but in this case with Edison .54 accuracy vs Prophet .97 accuracy and $36.76 per calf it's far from a tie.

IF you retain ownership Edison at $30 even with low reliability proof should be the better choice and a much
better choice than a bull like Rainfall $35 at Select Sires. Although Full Measure $40 at Select should be better
for retained ownership than all 3.

For retained ownership I prefer a more well proven, lower cost sire like Sydgen Black Diamond $20
B.D. at $20 x 1.5 = $30 per calf
F.M. at $40 1.5 = $60 per calf
So right out of the gate you're up $30 per calf with Black Diamond vs Full Measure
(When feedlot margins are under $100 you bet that $30 makes a difference.)
And it takes over 2 years (9 months + 15 months) from the day you buy the semen to get that money back let alone to see the probable return on investment.

p.s.
I admit I'm biased because...
I like the couple Black Diamonds I've seen... even though I'm sure there are others who's epds would beat his.

 

[NEFarmwife]

Lets keep this going. I think there is a lot of discussion to be had on EPD's alone. We had to change our entire thought process when we chose to finish out. Not just chasing $B but still having quality replacements and wanting the most out of our dollar.

So the $W value is as a whole, what the sire is expected to bring into its progeny, growth minus inputs. A cow/calf operation is certainly going to flourish from a $90+ value and I don't argue that's not exceptional. But some of his carcass isn't the best. I.E. right now we're looking at our registered herd, knowing we have to add some high marbling genetics to our herd.

But having switched to our finishing them, I look at the end result. Our buyers, wether it be at weaning or finishing... want good carcass grades. We've had buyers in the past be repeat because of our scores. Buying ours, not someone else's. Now we've cut out that middle man but those grades are still important.

If one fails to see the importance of the end result, will they lose a potential buyer? For a premium?

I'd be interested in hearing from CAB folks. We aren't.

If you were to take these two sires and do finished, who has the better hand? And if you and I each sold progeny of each sire and the same feedlot finished these out... which do you think they'd want to buy more from in the future?

I'm not trying to argue, nor "win" this discussion. I'm genuinely picking brains. I'm quite surprised at the number of cattlemen who know nothing about EPDs and how resourceful they can be as a tool.