AI Bulls--comments appreciated

[boondocks]

Howdy,
Starting to get serious as we need to make AI choices in the next week or so. Our focus is calving ease, docility, marbling, and a moderate animal without the dreaded angus hatchet azz. We sell some replacement heifers, some grass-fed beef, and recently a few bull calves (by customer request).

SS just came out with a new one, EWA Peyton, that has a lot I like. Here is Peyton: http://www.selectsiresbeef.com/index.ph ... reed=Angus

A few others that I'm considering are Tehama Bonanza, GAR Composure; with some consideration given to Conneally Power Surge, Baldridge Bronc, Hoover Elation or Top Notch, and Conneally Combination (all Select Sires: https://issuu.com/selectsiresbeef/docs/ ... 1/57066772

Any thoughts or experience appreciated. (There are a few of the lower CED ones I probably wouldn't use on heifers).

 

[wbvs58]

I have done a bit of research on Baldridge Bronc and he is one I will be ordering later in the year. I used his sire EF Commando last year and am waiting on some cows to calve to him shortly, I thought I would use Baldridge Bronc this year instead as he has a bit more frame size, I think he resides at Musgrave Angus. Another that seems to be performing for Musgrave is LD Capitolist 316 that might be worth considering.

Ken

 

[True Grit Farms]

Boondocks, I'd look closely at the GAR bulls. They breed for tenderness and ribeye.

 

[torogmc81]

I don't see most GAR bulls as moderate

I agree with Ken on Capitalist 316 and don't forget Capitalist himself. My best calves bull and heifers are out of Capitalist, and 316 is following his sires footsteps. Muscle, calving easy, great replacements, and stout bulls.

 

[boondocks]

Thanks all. I'm limited to SS lineup (including their Accelerated Genetics bulls) so the only Capitalist bull I'm seeing is Conneally Capitalist (sire SAV Final Answer). His DOC is 16 (my totally arbitrary cutoff is 17 and most of the ones I'm looking at are mid to high 20s).
TG, I do like GAR Composure a lot. I'll have to look at some of my pedigrees; we already have a good bit of GAR influence I think.
Anybody have any thoughts on Peyton? He's accuracy is still a bit lower than I'd like but I see a lot else to like (to my somewhat untutored eye)....

 

[Hogtiming]

I have thought about using Bronc myself. I like what I have heard. May try a little colonel also

 

[Air gator]

I would skip EWA Peyton for now. He has one of the worst $EN numbers I have ever seen so it will cost you to keep his calves.
His marbling accuracy is low so his marbling epd is likely to drop...even though he will still be way above average.
Select Sires has a lot of nice bulls but that's a pretty high number for Docility.
Flat Top has a lot of eye appeal but don't think he has that many calves on the ground.

I like the Fortress bull they have because he earned his wings. KCF sold him and then bought him back once they saw the quality of his calves. He might be a bull to use if you were keeping calves.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EA_OWBx0r2A&t=7s



If you were selling you would have to go with something like Tex Playbook. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xoH1CL3yv4

 

[boondocks]

I would skip EWA Peyton for now. He has one of the worst $EN numbers I have ever seen so it will cost you to keep his calves.
His marbling accuracy is low so his marbling epd is likely to drop...even though he will still be way above average.
Select Sires has a lot of nice bulls but that's a pretty high number for Docility.
Flat Top has a lot of eye appeal but don't think he has that many calves on the ground.

I like the Fortress bull they have because he earned his wings. KCF sold him and then bought him back once they saw the quality of his calves. He might be a bull to use if you were keeping calves.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EA_OWBx0r2A&t=7s



If you were selling you would have to go with something like Tex Playbook. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xoH1CL3yv4

Thanks gator. I do like TEX Playbook. His marbling is a bit low though (.68 at .38 Acc). I have always liked Fortress, and have come close to using him, but the DOC of 11 keeps me from pulling the trigger...

 

[Son of Butch]

I'd pay $40 for Playbook before I'd pay it for low accuracy young sire Peyton. But both are plenty high at $40.
.68 marbling is in top 25% of the angus breed

 

[Air gator]

SOB,
You are right on about the $40.
It is one thing if a bull has really hit the mark and his price goes up to $40.
It's another for a bull that doesn't even have calves on the ground to be $40.

I think the $40 sticker price derailed some nice bulls who could have been a Top 25 bull had they been priced right.
One of those bulls is Sav Pursuit. I have some really nice embryo calves by him.
I think SAV Ten Speed would have been used a lot more if he weren't priced that way.
There are too many good bulls for $25 or $30.

 

[boondocks]

Thanks for the further thoughts. For me, with my (currently-very) small herd, the difference between $25 or $30/straw versus $40 isn't a deal-breaker. SOB, your point is taken about Peyton's acc scores. Other than that and $EN, do you see any glaring errors with him?
Your marbling point is interesting. If .68 is top quarter, a few I was looking at must be among the very top.
Of course, my musings will be meaningless when/if I call my tech and he says he can't get any of my top ones....

 

[W.B.]

My question would be how much frame do you want? There are some big differences in the bulls you are considering. I will add docility epd is an indicator not an absolute. I have Capitalist progeny that range from 1 to 3 years of age that extremely docile. Never got a single one from him that was even a little flighty. The daughters are easy to work with at calving time with good maternal instincts. Overall he is quite a bit above breed average for docility.

 

[Son of Butch]

Thanks for the further thoughts. For me, with my (currently-very) small herd, the difference between $25 or $30/straw versus $40 isn't a deal-breaker. SOB, your point is taken about Peyton's acc scores.
Other than that and $EN, do you see any glaring errors with him?
Your marbling point is interesting. If .68 is top quarter, a few I was looking at must be among the very top.
Of course, my musings will be meaningless when/if I call my tech and he says he can't get any of my top ones....

correction:
Playbook .68 top 35% (not 25% fat fingers must have hit 2 instead of 3 sorry)
Bronc .72 top 30%
Composure 1.12 top 5%
.99 is top 10%
1.42 marbling is top 1% which makes Peyton an extreme breed leader at 1.45 but with very low .34 accuracy

You might want to consider GAR Prophet 24 doc 1.53 marbling .82 accuracy price $25

 

[bse]

FWIW i wouldnt play numbers, unless i needed to fix something, my clean up bull has a -5 doc and is a puppy, any heifer should be able to handle 8 ced and 2 bw. I hear that all the time i must have 15 or better ced or ill have to pull a calf BS, if you moderate those numbers your choice of bulls will open up tremendously. ive used this bull on heifers 15734469 no problems, wouldnt be for everyone. just my thoughts

 

[boondocks]

Thanks for the further thoughts. For me, with my (currently-very) small herd, the difference between $25 or $30/straw versus $40 isn't a deal-breaker. SOB, your point is taken about Peyton's acc scores.
Other than that and $EN, do you see any glaring errors with him?
Your marbling point is interesting. If .68 is top quarter, a few I was looking at must be among the very top.
Of course, my musings will be meaningless when/if I call my tech and he says he can't get any of my top ones....

correction:
Playbook .68 top 35% (not 25% fat fingers must have hit 2 instead of 3 sorry)
Bronc .72 top 30%
Composure 1.12 top 5%
.99 is top 10%
1.42 marbling is top 1% which makes Peyton an extreme breed leader at 1.45 but with very low .34 accuracy

You might want to consider GAR Prophet 24 doc 1.53 marbling .82 accuracy price $25

I've always liked Prophet but have never been able to get any. Think we've tried once or twice. Maybe will re-try.
Can someone give me a couple examples of the differences in frame size in the bulls I noted? I am trying to learn but have not focused a whole lot on frame and probably do need to pay more attention. Ours are moderate and I don't want a huge frame nor minis .

 

[Son of Butch]

Reading cattle genetics advertising is a bit like reading real estate advertising using terms to cover reality, ie...
Cozy = too small
Charming = too old
needs TLC = it's a dump
moderate = short/small cattle

Mature Height and Yearling Height are the 2 most heritable traits
MH and MW usually go hand in hand as does yearling height and yearling weight.
As a rule 'moderate' cattle = +$EN and elephant sized cattle = -$EN

breed average
yh .4
yw 90
mh .3
mw 27

top 25%
yh .6
yw 104
mh .5
mw 43

bottom 25%
yh .2
yw 75
mh .1
mw 10

Hoover Elation - short but heavier than expected for stature = short and wide
yh -.1 bottom 15%
yw 106 top 24%
mh .1 bottom 30%
mw 19 bottom 35%

Peyton
yh 1.0 top 3%
yw 178 through the roof and off the charts (139 yw is top 1%)
mh 1.2 cows taller than extreme top 1% of 1.1
mw 99 top 1% = 84 mw

Peyton's steers should be bell ringers, definitely great terminal sire potential, but his daughters as the saying goes
might eat you out of house and home.
Backbone Ranch should be using him on those Murray Greys of his to sell calves to the circus as baby elephants.
(charolais should give you greys to pass off as baby elephants too.)

Peyton is a WOW bull in extreme. But as ole Doc Harris used to post about cattle breeding, balance, balance, balance.
Beware of extremes.

 

[boondocks]

Wanted to update this thread. We ended up using Crouthamel Protocol, Baldridge Bronc, and Tehama Bonanza. We had excellent conception with Protocol (100% on first try), about average with Bronc, and Bonanza went 0/5 (no conceptions in 3 animals in good condition on TAI. Two we tried Bonanza again and still they didn't take; the third one we went with Bronc and she took). Now, of course it could be a lot of different factors but you better believe I will not use Bonanza again.

 

[wbvs58]

Hard to maintain confidence when you get results like that. Where there is smoke there is fire I believe.

Ken

 

[boondocks]

Hard to maintain confidence when you get results like that. Where there is smoke there is fire I believe.

Ken

Yup. Maybe he's got good swimmers but they didn't do well in transit/storage. But will stay away for sure.
It has my calving season spread back out after working really hard for a tight spring window.

 

[NEFarmwife]

It is my understanding that docility is not realized in a docile herd. The DOC score has always been an EPD I look at and I do believe has merit but if your herd is docile and you work them, not just send to pasture to see no human life... I don’t think you’ll see that doc score come to realization.

That is my interpretation. I wouldn’t mind a convo on that. We don’t tolerate bad behavior. If one of our cows gets hot, too spazzy, anxious, etc... when we work her, she’s gone. So that DOC has had a lot of credibility with me but I believe I read that DOC write up on angus site somewhere. And a 17? That’s really high! I believe you can go a lot lower than that and still have a great cow.