AHA's testing procedure

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alexfarms

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http://www.dentondesigns.net/clients/ah ... 200811.pdf

This is the info from the Hereford enews I received yesterday. It says: "...If your animal is listed free of the abnormalities, you will find an FDL or FIE under the animals name on the pedigree and at the end of the animals name on the AHA website. Carrier animals will be listed as IE or DL."
I have not seen any animals with an IE or DL on the website, but several have the FIE or FDL missing. Has anyone come up with any clarifications?

Condiser this pedigree:
http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... D&9=535B59
"Cl 1 domino 9126J 1ET (SOD,CHB,FDL" contains 34 spaces. HIs great grandsire: "HH ADVANCE 9012Y (SOD,CHB,FDL" contains 29 spaces. If 9126J has room for 34 spaces, then why doesn't 9012y? With the additional 5 spaces, 9012Y could have either a FIE or IE added to his name. Surely he is one or the other and if FDL has been done, then hasn't FIE been done? I called the AHA last week and tried to talk to someone about this, and I had a bad phone connection and I couldn't hear what the woman was saying. Does anyone know what in the heck is going on, are these bulls carriers or what? :???:
 

Herefords.US

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John, I suspect that is a "field" and programming problem that they will get worked out.

The "name field" has so many spaces allocated to it - I suspect whatever the maximum number of characters a name can be. Then the designations have a "field" that's also limited to a certain number of characters.

George

P.S. I'm confident that 767G and 9126J have been tested as IE free - just as I'm confident that you'll never see FIE behind 9012Y's name....and until 9012Y sires 2 calves that have been reported and confirmed with IE, he'll never receive the IE designation either.

Some Hereford breeders should look at how the Gardiner's have handled their problem in the Angus breed and follow their example. But that would require the integrity to put the breed's interest as a whole ahead of their own self interests.
 

Herefords.US

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alexfarms":1xd9i6ly said:
What this appears to be to me is a confusing mess. Integrity? Misinformation is not integrity.

Conspiracy is running rampant everywhere!

Those pesky UFOs decided to show up in the skies here in Stephenville again this month. Word is aliens wanted to vote absentee for their new leader, someone in their own image - Joe the plumber! Or around here known as Jose' el fontanero
:tiphat:

It's late!

George
 
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alexfarms

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Herefords.US":1kl4hxiz said:
John, I suspect that is a "field" and programming problem that they will get worked out.

The "name field" has so many spaces allocated to it - I suspect whatever the maximum number of characters a name can be. Then the designations have a "field" that's also limited to a certain number of characters.

George

P.S. I'm confident that 767G and 9126J have been tested as IE free - just as I'm confident that you'll never see FIE behind 9012Y's name....and until 9012Y sires 2 calves that have been reported and confirmed with IE, he'll never receive the IE designation either.

Some Hereford breeders should look at how the Gardiner's have handled their problem in the Angus breed and follow their example. But that would require the integrity to put the breed's interest as a whole ahead of their own self interests.
I suppose that that is a reasonable explanation on the spacing. But if a bull has been tested as a carrier the rules say that he will be so designated and they ought to just put the IE on him instead of leaving the FIE off as a way of identifying him as a carrier. This ought to make any sane, objective person shake their head. It boarders on downright unworkable. I didn't think the AHA could ever do anything as self defeating as when they hid a large portion of the breeds epd's when we went to whole herd reporting several years back, but they may, now, have outdone even that. The powers that be will do what they choose to do and the rest of us will carry the expense.
 

Herefords.US

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alexfarms":19e18m9i said:
Herefords.US":19e18m9i said:
John, I suspect that is a "field" and programming problem that they will get worked out.

The "name field" has so many spaces allocated to it - I suspect whatever the maximum number of characters a name can be. Then the designations have a "field" that's also limited to a certain number of characters.

George

P.S. I'm confident that 767G and 9126J have been tested as IE free - just as I'm confident that you'll never see FIE behind 9012Y's name....and until 9012Y sires 2 calves that have been reported and confirmed with IE, he'll never receive the IE designation either.

Some Hereford breeders should look at how the Gardiner's have handled their problem in the Angus breed and follow their example. But that would require the integrity to put the breed's interest as a whole ahead of their own self interests.
I suppose that that is a reasonable explanation on the spacing. But if a bull has been tested as a carrier the rules say that he will be so designated and they ought to just put the IE on him instead of leaving the FIE off as a way of identifying him as a carrier. This ought to make any sane, objective person shake their head. It boarders on downright unworkable. I didn't think the AHA could ever do anything as self defeating as when they hid a large portion of the breeds epd's when we went to whole herd reporting several years back, but they may, now, have outdone even that. The powers that be will do what they choose to do and the rest of us will carry the expense.

One thing I'm sure we can agree on, John, is that the present "look" of the names and designations on the AHA EPD web-site isn't up to par with one that a professional organization would publish and have where the general public can look at it and then have room to speculate as to what is the REAL truth!

Someone up there in KC needs to get their hiney in gear!

George
 

Frankie

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Come on, guys. I can't believe the AHA would not list a bull as having a genetic defect if he's been proven and shown to carry it. :? On the other hand, they can't put it on his pedigree unless he has been proven to have it. There's only so much the breed association can do without the bull owner's permission.
 
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alexfarms

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Frankie":3qoffqir said:
Come on, guys. I can't believe the AHA would not list a bull as having a genetic defect if he's been proven and shown to carry it. :? On the other hand, they can't put it on his pedigree unless he has been proven to have it. There's only so much the breed association can do without the bull owner's permission.

The strangest thing about this, Frankie, is the AHA has listed some bulls for having genetic abnormalities. I recall several years ago, shortly after the merger of the AHA and APHA, the AHA was supposed to come out with a list of carrier bulls for a couple different abnormalities. The list didn't come out as scheduled. So, I called up the breed imporvement director at the time, who is now deceased, and asked him if there was a new list. He said the list was the same as last year but that just a couple polled bulls had been added to the hypotrichosis list. I said what about the horned side? He responded: "There's nothing on the horned side". I have both horned and polled cattle and I like both horned and polled herefords, but there is not "no abnormalities" on the horned side or in any other breed. We have people running our association that are in denial. It is not so much that they are in denial over whether there are genetic abnormalities in Hereford cattle, it is that they are in denial about being capable of concealing the faults that do exist in the breed. You say: "I can't believe the AHA would not list a bull as having a genetic defect if he's been proven and shown to carry it". Not only are they unwilling to identify known carriers, they have devised a system implicating every animal in the breed as suspected carriers until they are proven free of the abnormal gene just so the known carriers are not singled out by not also having been proven free of the abnormal gene. This makes members unable to check pedigrees by indentifying known carriers that might be in an animals pedigree. All of our untested animals remain suspected carriers until we pay the $35/head to have them tested and proven free of the genetic abnormalities. This hurts the Hereford breed. They believe they are protecting the breed and they are prolonging the problems. What is lacking is sunlight and transparency. Ignorance is an enemy of progress. The AAA is doing it the right way. I am sure there is a lag.....where people are getting burned by not knowing the abnormalities before they make major purchases, but it has to come out in the open as quickly as possible. When the staff and board of directors know the problem exits, it has to come out to the general membership. I don't know why we can't have that kind of leadership in the Hereford breed. I have seen good people try to move us in that direction and fail. I don't know why we can't make that change.
 

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JA....if you don't make a scene about this, maybe we can keep you satisfied by doing something else for you. For example, do you have any feeder calves you want to sell every year? Maybe we could provide free DNA tests for you, but do you promise not to tell anyone? Do you know anyone on the board personally? If so, maybe we can have someone pick you up and show you around the complex so you understand the way things really are and how our income depends upon new members. Would this be enough for you to keep silent? After all, word of mouth about our integrity means everything in our business. If you keep posting this non-sense, I will be forced to give you my direct phone line. Do you know of any potential new members? :mrgreen:
 
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alexfarms

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HerefordSire":14cor4s7 said:
JA....if you don't make a scene about this, maybe we can keep you satisfied by doing something else for you. For example, do you have any feeder calves you want to sell every year? Maybe we could provide free DNA tests for you, but do you promise not to tell anyone? Do you know anyone on the board personally? If so, maybe we can have someone pick you up and show you around the complex so you understand the way things really are and how our income depends upon new members. Would this be enough for you to keep silent? After all, word of mouth about our integrity means everything in our business. If you keep posting this non-sense, I will be forced to give you my direct phone line. Do you know of any potential new members? :mrgreen:

I am sorry you think it is nonsense. Apparantly alot of other people agree with you. I think a change in attitude toward more openness would make ours a better association and would help to improve the Hereford breed. These backwards ways of doing business our hurting the Hereford breed.
 

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alexfarms":1rygndg2 said:
HerefordSire":1rygndg2 said:
JA....if you don't make a scene about this, maybe we can keep you satisfied by doing something else for you. For example, do you have any feeder calves you want to sell every year? Maybe we could provide free DNA tests for you, but do you promise not to tell anyone? Do you know anyone on the board personally? If so, maybe we can have someone pick you up and show you around the complex so you understand the way things really are and how our income depends upon new members. Would this be enough for you to keep silent? After all, word of mouth about our integrity means everything in our business. If you keep posting this non-sense, I will be forced to give you my direct phone line. Do you know of any potential new members? :mrgreen:

I am sorry you think it is nonsense. Apparantly alot of other people agree with you. I think a change in attitude toward more openness would make ours a better association and would help to improve the Hereford breed. These backwards ways of doing business our hurting the Hereford breed.

I was being sarcastic. I don't think it is funny at all! I agree with everything you are writing and I am behind you all the way. I am plum fed up with the AHA.
 

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I had a number of bulls and some females tested early this spring. One bull came back positive, which I had suspected it would based on conversations I had with the person I bought it from. When I discussed the results with Dr. Beever, he said that he would contact the AHA and let them know I had cattle tested and they would be in contact with me about the results being made public (which is what I had wanted). I would have to sign some release form giving the AHA permission to mak the test results public. I never heard from them. Since then, I really haven't had the time or inclination to get a hold of the AHA. The bull that tested positive was a young bull and he went to McDonalds. Didn't keep any seedstock out of him, so I'm not overly concerned about him being listed. His dam and maternal grandsire are listed.

The way I understand it at this time, the bylaws of the AHA will not allow them to list animals as positive based on the blood test without the owner's permission.
 

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Elder Statesman":3rrwo2kj said:
I had a number of bulls and some females tested early this spring. One bull came back positive, which I had suspected it would based on conversations I had with the person I bought it from. When I discussed the results with Dr. Beever, he said that he would contact the AHA and let them know I had cattle tested and they would be in contact with me about the results being made public (which is what I had wanted). I would have to sign some release form giving the AHA permission to mak the test results public. I never heard from them. Since then, I really haven't had the time or inclination to get a hold of the AHA. The bull that tested positive was a young bull and he went to McDonalds. Didn't keep any seedstock out of him, so I'm not overly concerned about him being listed. His dam and maternal grandsire are listed.

The way I understand it at this time, the bylaws of the AHA will not allow them to list animals as positive based on the blood test without the owner's permission.

This skews the data then. We can spin a roulette wheel right before we purchase an animal. If the ball lands on black, the buyer gets a healthy animal.
 

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HerefordSire":1zj8ly9i said:
Elder Statesman":1zj8ly9i said:
I had a number of bulls and some females tested early this spring. One bull came back positive, which I had suspected it would based on conversations I had with the person I bought it from. When I discussed the results with Dr. Beever, he said that he would contact the AHA and let them know I had cattle tested and they would be in contact with me about the results being made public (which is what I had wanted). I would have to sign some release form giving the AHA permission to mak the test results public. I never heard from them. Since then, I really haven't had the time or inclination to get a hold of the AHA. The bull that tested positive was a young bull and he went to McDonalds. Didn't keep any seedstock out of him, so I'm not overly concerned about him being listed. His dam and maternal grandsire are listed.

The way I understand it at this time, the bylaws of the AHA will not allow them to list animals as positive based on the blood test without the owner's permission.[/quote]

This skews the data then. We can spin a roulette wheel right before we purchase an animal. If the ball lands on black, the buyer gets a healthy animal.

I won't spin the roulete wheel. If there are breeders out there that have positive animals and wont' list them, they won't get my business. We really don't need these people in the Hereford seedstock business either.

Brian
 

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smnherf":x5vxm1kx said:
[
I won't spin the roulete wheel. If there are breeders out there that have positive animals and wont' list them, they won't get my business. We really don't need these people in the Hereford seedstock business either.

Brian


Wow, you hit the nail on the head. Its all about breeder integrity. I don't care if you are talking about IE, birthweights, udders, or growth performance. You better be honest and protect your reputation, because if you don't, there are a lot of breeders out there like me that have a long memory. There are some animals out there that might be really good, but I won't buy them because of the prefix in front of their name.

At the annual meeting a few years ago, I heard a "top" breeder talk to a large group about the importance of lower birthweights and he was later praised by an AHA staff member for all of the data he collected on his cattle. I later in the day I over heard the man say he just didn't have time to weigh every calf when it was born, but probably did weigh 6 or 7 out of 10. After that, I don't even waste my time looking at anything that comes from that ranch and never will.

I only buy seedstock and semen from outfits that I trust and know well. Those are the people that will stand behind their animals and take care of problems if they arise. And if you stay in this business long enough, you will have some. How you deal with them and treat your customers in the process will say a lot about your character and integrity. There are some people in our breed who have stepped up to the plate on the IE issue and came forward to try and fix the problem. There were others involved that had to be dragged to the plate kicking and screaming. Their prefix is a red flag for me, not because of the genetics, but because of the people behind it.
 

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I won't spin the roulete wheel. If there are breeders out there that have positive animals and wont' list them, they won't get my business. We really don't need these people in the Hereford seedstock business either.

Brian


Are there many registered Herefords with genetic issues which are not listed? If so, how do you suggest we go about this when making purchase transactions in the future? Maybe compare the animals listed with issues and then search for them in the pedigree?
 
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alexfarms

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HerefordSire":1j8wtt8m said:
I won't spin the roulete wheel. If there are breeders out there that have positive animals and wont' list them, they won't get my business. We really don't need these people in the Hereford seedstock business either.

Brian


Are there many registered Herefords with genetic issues which are not listed? If so, how do you suggest we go about this when making purchase transactions in the future? Maybe compare the animals listed with issues and then search for them in the pedigree?
I don't believe there are "many registered Herefords with genetic issues". I don't think Herefords are as bad as most breeds, at least no worse. We don't have a credible way of getting the info out. It seems like the main carriers don't get listed. You can look through the ones that are listed as carriers and look back in their pedigrees to see which animals are common between the carriers, then watch out for those ancestors. The IE and DL tests are available and any bull that gets an AI permit issued will now be tested for those two and listed either free or carriers. As far as which animals are the main carriers we can only go by rumors and looking at the common ancestors of known carriers. I have heard lots of rumors that look credible because the rumored carriers appear in the pedigree of some proven carriers but we really can't be certain without the test results.
 
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alexfarms

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sooknortex":3d9qx1os said:
I find it funny when a bull is listed fdl, but not fie (as in 9012y) what does this tell ya?
9012y is fdl and no fie. His son hh advance 249b is the same way and his son hh advance 438d is the same way. hh advance 6052f is fdl and no fie and he has some progeny listed with the ie....they are carriers. 6052f's sire is fdl and fie and his dam 160a has no indication, but she has progeny that are fdl and no fie. And, looky there, 160a's sire is 9012y, who, as you mentioned is fdl and no fie. The real question is how many cattle behind 9012y would also be fdl and no fie, if they were tested and where did this lack of fie descend from and which animals may it have descended to through animals other than 9012y? The AHA is now requiring the dl and ie test for sires being AI permitted now, so more information will eventually come out and breeders can test their sale bulls before they sell them to determine if they are fdl and fie before they leave their possession.
 

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HerefordSire":1j78c8jr said:
I won't spin the roulete wheel. If there are breeders out there that have positive animals and wont' list them, they won't get my business. We really don't need these people in the Hereford seedstock business either.

Brian


Are there many registered Herefords with genetic issues which are not listed? If so, how do you suggest we go about this when making purchase transactions in the future? Maybe compare the animals listed with issues and then search for them in the pedigree?

I am unaware of other genetic defects in the Hereford population.

The issue is more than just genetic defects that some breeders refuse to admit to. If they deny publishing a known positive IE status, what I worry about is what else are they withholding from me and can I trust the data they do show me.Are they culling the bad udders, the prolapses, the cancer eyes, the bad dispositions, the slow calves at birth, the cows that don't claim calves, etc. These convenience traits are absolutely critical to the future success of the Hereford breed. It takes more than just epds to stay in my operation.

As far as making purchasing decisions, I simply won't purchase or use that line of cattle associated with those individuals unless I have first hand knowledge through people I absolutely trust that they are problem free cattle.

Brian
 

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