Advice (or comments) on epd's

[docgraybull]

I have never used epd's in the selection of cattle in the past. But I've read quite a bit about them on these boards. I'm in the market to replace one of my older bulls. I am going to replace him with a Black Angus bull (I'm set on this, so please, no added confusion of advice on other breeds :lol: ). I will initially use him on a group or two of Angus cross and multicross (Heinz 57) heifers and he will eventually be used with the rest of the mature herd (assuming he performs well). Steers will be sold, generally after weaning and preconditioning, heifers will be kept (if they are good enough). Besides conformation, the criteria that I have initially set for selection are as follows: calving ease epd > 5; birthweight epd < 3; weaning weight epd > 40; yearling weight epd > 70; milk epd > 20; actual birthweight < 75; actual (adjusted) 205 day weaning weight > 650; and ribeye area > 12.
To those experienced with epd's, and/or those with strong opinions on epd's, taking into consideration this bull's planned role, are these reasonable epd and measurement/weight criteria to begin scanning sale catalogs with? If not, what should I alter in my approach?

 

[Frankie]

I have never used epd's in the selection of cattle in the past. But I've read quite a bit about them on these boards. I'm in the market to replace one of my older bulls. I am going to replace him with a Black Angus bull (I'm set on this, so please, no added confusion of advice on other breeds :lol: ). I will initially use him on a group or two of Angus cross and multicross (Heinz 57) heifers and he will eventually be used with the rest of the mature herd (assuming he performs well). Steers will be sold, generally after weaning and preconditioning, heifers will be kept (if they are good enough). Besides conformation, the criteria that I have initially set for selection are as follows: calving ease epd > 5; birthweight epd < 3; weaning weight epd > 40; yearling weight epd > 70; milk epd > 20; actual birthweight < 75; actual (adjusted) 205 day weaning weight > 650; and ribeye area > 12.
To those experienced with epd's, and/or those with strong opinions on epd's, taking into consideration this bull's planned role, are these reasonable epd and measurement/weight criteria to begin scanning sale catalogs with? If not, what should I alter in my approach?

Good choice. My only question would be on the milk. Breed average is about 18. To produce that much milk and maintain condition to breed back, a cow is going to need good forage or supplemental feed. Depending on your rainfall and the forge available, you might give that some thought, if you're planning to retain heifers. And, personally, I'd like a bigger ribeye. Otherwise, you're goals are quite acceptable. I think you can find lots of Angus bulls with those EPDs. Remember, too, that actual weights are highly influenced by management (feed).

 

[KB]

I agree with Frankie. The Milk EPD is one we like to keep in check based on our environment. Second agreement with Frankie is the comment about actual information being used. Keep in mind that the feed bucket isn't heritable.....and the way the animal is fed / developed will affect not just the actual/adjusted weights but also the ultrasound data.

 

[docgraybull]

First of all, thank you for the responses and advice. Secondly, let me clarify what, I think, both of you are indicating regarding the milk epd. That I should consider a lower milk epd? I was thinking (once again, I'm new to trying to utilize this type of information) that a higher sire milk epd would be a good indicator for replacement/retained heifers, so that they would be good milk producers. But what I'm getting from your advice is that with a paternal milk epd of > 20 the offspring would, in fact, be good milkers, maybe too good, to the point that they might nurse out condition to the point that they might not readily breed back. If I've understood correctly, what would be the lowest (and highest) milk epd that you would recommend, keeping in mind that I may keep some or all of the heifers for replacements, and assuming that I have plenty of good grass/hay. If I've understood incorrectly, please straighten me out.

I understand that actual (or adjusted) weaning or yearling weights will be influenced by supplemental creep, etc. I've seen some weaning weights above 860# with yearling weights above 1500# (obviously supplemented)! But I figured at least 650# (as a minimum) would show some growthiness. The first catalog I've been scanning has weaning weights ranging from 560# up to 770#. They are advertised as performance bulls (not show ring bulls). There's no comment on whether they have been creeped or not. I assume reputable breeders will answer honestly if asked about supplementation of their calves?

On the ribeye size, I would like a bigger one also. I'm considering using 12 as a minimum. In your opinion(s) should I raise the standard on this measurement? If so, to what (as a minimum requirement)?

 

[greenwillowherefords]

One of the first things to consider is the milking ability of the cows you are breeding the bull to. If they are heavy milkers, then you might want to drop to a 15 or so. If they are poor milkers, you might need the extra milk in the bull's EPD to balance out the replacements.

If everything else was outstanding about the bull, you might be willing to settle for the 12" ribeye. There has been some discussion that some REAs are getting TOO large, making portion sizes excessive. I'm not saying that I subscribe to this theory, but it is out there.

I wouldn't be afraid to use a bull that is breed average for BW as long as his calving ease looks OK. I speak only for Angus and Hereford in this regard.

 

[greenwillowherefords]

Most breeders who DON'T creep say so right up front because they are proud of their animals' performance without the enhancement.

If you really want to limit your choices, find all of that criteria along with negative backfat AND positive IMF.

 

[dun]

I don;t know if angus have a maternal calving ease, i.e. daughters calving ease. But if you're retaining heifers and there is one, I would look to breed average or higher.

dun

 

[greenwillowherefords]

I don;t know if angus have a maternal calving ease, i.e. daughters calving ease. But if you're retaining heifers and there is one, I would look to breed average or higher.

dun

Agreed.

 

[docgraybull]

One of the first things to consider is the milking ability of the cows you are breeding the bull to.

I will initially be using the new bull on Angus cross and multicross (Heinz 57) heifers, so they are unproven as far as milking ability. With that in mind, please share your thoughts regarding milk epd.

Since most breeders who DON'T creep say so right up front, can I probably assume that if they don't note that in their catalog, that they DO creep their calves?

Thanks for the info. on the backfat and IMF.

 

[greenwillowherefords]

One of the first things to consider is the milking ability of the cows you are breeding the bull to.

I will initially be using the new bull on Angus cross and multicross (Heinz 57) heifers, so they are unproven as far as milking ability. With that in mind, please share your thoughts regarding milk epd.

Since most breeders who DON'T creep say so right up front, can I probably assume that if they don't note that in their catalog, that they DO creep their calves?

Thanks for the info. on the backfat and IMF.

Welcome.

I would say that there is a pretty good probability that those who don't specify either way do creep feed. That is an educated speculation you might say.

Do you know anything about the mothers of the heifers? Do they have a breed known for high milk production in their genetics? Do you have the available forage to sustain heavy milking cows?

 

[docgraybull]

I don;t know if angus have a maternal calving ease, i.e. daughters calving ease. But if you're retaining heifers and there is one, I would look to breed average or higher.

dun

The catalog I'm reviewing has a "CED" category and generally, but not always, a higher "CED" correlates with a lower birthweight epd so I assumed that "CED" was a calving ease epd. There is no information about the abbreviations in the catalog. What is the "breed average" calving ease epd for Black Angus? I arbitrarily set the threshold at > 5 after thumbing through some old catalogs and roughly figuring an average at < 5 for the bulls listed.

 

[dun]

I don;t know if angus have a maternal calving ease, i.e. daughters calving ease. But if you're retaining heifers and there is one, I would look to breed average or higher.

dun

The catalog I'm reviewing has a "CED" category and generally, but not always, a higher "CED" correlates with a lower birthweight epd so I assumed that "CED" was a calving ease epd. There is no information about the abbreviations in the catalog. What is the "breed average" calving ease epd for Black Angus? I arbitrarily set the threshold at > 5 after thumbing through some old catalogs and roughly figuring an average at < 5 for the bulls listed.

Catalogs are a good starting point if only for showing you what's available. From there you need to access the breed associations website and look at each individual animals EPDs in their entirety. Many time the catalogs will print the EPDs that are good and will just happen to ignore those that aren't near as complimentary. Particularly with bulls, if they don;t list the registration numbers, I'ld look for another bull source.
I frequently see Red Angus sales that don;t include CETM (daughters calving ease) or stability (the likelyhood the cow will stay in the herd for 6 years). If I'm not retaingin heifers from the bull, I could care less about those two numbers. But for a heifer replacement sire, they are vitally important.

dun

 

[KB]

What part of the US are you in? Rainfall and forage conditions? Before we're able to recommend a range on the milk EPD, it is important for us to know a little bit more. Personally, we think the milk EPD is one of the traits where my "optimum" isn't necessarily your "optimum". For example, we live in a 20" rainfall, harsh environment where we are unable to feed hay. Our cows run out on grass year round....about 1 cow/22-26 acres. Consequently, if our Angus cows get over about 24 for milk, we have noticed that because they are heavier milkers....putting it all into the calf....that they usually don't flesh as well.....and many times end up being culled due to not rebreeding. Notice that I said "usually"....there are exceptions. Does it mean that I don't like a high milking cow....not at all. But most of the time, she needs a different zip code besides ours to make a living.

 

[docgraybull]

Welcome.

I would say that there is a pretty good probability that those who don't specify either way do creep feed. That is an educated speculation you might say.

10-4, message received.

Do you know anything about the mothers of the heifers?

Most - yes, a few - no. Those that I do know their lineage, I would classify as "average". No dairy genetics.

Do they have a breed known for high milk production in their genetics?

Not really, but see above.

Do you have the available forage to sustain heavy milking cows?

Yes.

 

[KB]

Breed average for Angus on Calving Ease Direct (CED) is +4.

Another resource for you to look at regarding milk is on the angus website. On their home page is a web-based tool called the ANGUS OPTIMAL MILK MODULE. Try it to see what you come up with once you put your parameters in.

 

[KB]

oops....forgot to give you the link:

http://www.angus.org

 

[docgraybull]

What part of the US are you in? .

Northeast Oklahoma (God's country )

Rainfall and forage conditions?

Not sure of "average" rainfall, but generally plenty. Forage conditions are good and try to keep more grass than cows (don't overgraze).

Personally, we think the milk EPD is one of the traits where my "optimum" isn't necessarily your "optimum".

Understood.

 

[docgraybull]

Breed average for Angus on Calving Ease Direct (CED) is +4.

Thanks. So > 5 should be a good (minimal) starting point.

Another resource for you to look at regarding milk is on the angus website. On their home page is a web-based tool called the ANGUS OPTIMAL MILK MODULE. Try it to see what you come up with once you put your parameters in.

I got the website from your next post and ran the numbers and it gave me a suggested range of 18 - 22! With that in mind I'll lower the milk epd threshold to 18.

 

[Jake]

I have never used epd's in the selection of cattle in the past. But I've read quite a bit about them on these boards. I'm in the market to replace one of my older bulls. I am going to replace him with a Black Angus bull (I'm set on this, so please, no added confusion of advice on other breeds :lol: ). I will initially use him on a group or two of Angus cross and multicross (Heinz 57) heifers and he will eventually be used with the rest of the mature herd (assuming he performs well). Steers will be sold, generally after weaning and preconditioning, heifers will be kept (if they are good enough). Besides conformation, the criteria that I have initially set for selection are as follows: calving ease epd > 5; birthweight epd < 3; weaning weight epd > 40; yearling weight epd > 70; milk epd > 20; actual birthweight < 75; actual (adjusted) 205 day weaning weight > 650; and ribeye area > 12.
To those experienced with epd's, and/or those with strong opinions on epd's, taking into consideration this bull's planned role, are these reasonable epd and measurement/weight criteria to begin scanning sale catalogs with? If not, what should I alter in my approach?

CED at or over +4
BW under 2.5
WW around 40 preferably over
Milk 15-22 - go to http://www.angus.org and they have a new thing on there that calculates what your herd needs in order to be a economicly productive herd
YW around 80

 

[KB]

Glad to hear that it helped!

Beings your from "God's Country", have to tell ya' that I sure was disappointed about OSU's loss last night. Spent some of the best years of my life in Stillwater.