Actual carcass ultrasound vs carcass EPD

[Amo]

I'm a cow calf guy. Wean the calves and sell them about 45-60 days after weaning. The calves will weigh around 550-750.

I'm bull shopping. A valid argument is, where I don't retain ownership through the feedlot that paying attention to carcass data is irrelevant. I also know it's not very heritable. I do believe that you need to pay attention to things for the next person so hopefully they'll buy again.

So browsing through bull sale catalogs, which do you pay more attention to if you're watching carcass information? Personally, I like the actual ultrasound data. It's easy for me to o understand and keep track of. Technically, I spose like anything else the epds should be more accurate. They're only as accurate as the data that's reported. Ultrasound information can be skewed by how they feed. It's also ironic that sometimes something with a good IMF on ultrasound will have a low EPD. Could be not a proven bull or how they feed.

Just looking for hopefully expert opinions 😉. I do like epds. A lot of talk that epds are worthless.

 

[Ebenezer]

Carcass traits are some of the most heritable. If you like EPDs, you ignore the actual data. If you believe that EPDs are the average expected rather than the actual measurements then you go with measured data.

 

[Son of Butch]

I'm a cow calf guy. Wean the calves and sell them about 45-60 days after weaning. The calves will weigh around 550-750.

I'm bull shopping. A valid argument is, where I don't retain ownership through the feedlot that paying attention to carcass data is irrelevant.

For commercial cow/calf operators #1 influence on Net Profit is pounds weaned per cow exposed. Fertility, live calf (ce & bw) calf vigor, weaning weight, $W

 

[Travlr]

I'm a cow calf guy. Wean the calves and sell them about 45-60 days after weaning. The calves will weigh around 550-750.

I'm bull shopping. A valid argument is, where I don't retain ownership through the feedlot that paying attention to carcass data is irrelevant. I also know it's not very heritable. I do believe that you need to pay attention to things for the next person so hopefully they'll buy again.

So browsing through bull sale catalogs, which do you pay more attention to if you're watching carcass information? Personally, I like the actual ultrasound data. It's easy for me to o understand and keep track of. Technically, I spose like anything else the epds should be more accurate. They're only as accurate as the data that's reported. Ultrasound information can be skewed by how they feed. It's also ironic that sometimes something with a good IMF on ultrasound will have a low EPD. Could be not a proven bull or how they feed.

Just looking for hopefully expert opinions 😉. I do like epds. A lot of talk that epds are worthless.

I like EPD information... but it isn't what sells a terminal calf at the point of sale. The guy looking at your calf is using his eyes to evaluate your animals. I've always bought bulls that compliment my cows based on their conformation. I want calves with muscle deep into the hock and with some roundness to their butt, straight backs, and docile. I don't want big bellies or waste in the brisket. The calves need to be, and look like, easy keepers. I like bulls that look like the calves I want to get, but muscled up like a bull.

EPDs are worth more if you are breeding for replacement heifers.

 

[J+ Cattle]

I'm definitely no expert but I do know that EPDs are changed or refined by actual data that gets reported, the more data reported the more accurate the EPD becomes. So, for example, if you're looking through a sale catalog at a yearling bull (low accuracy) then I would pay attention to the actual data more so than the EPD.

 

[Amo]

* I cant get the quote thing to work.

Carcass traits are some of the most heritable. If you like EPDs, you ignore the actual data. If you believe that EPDs are the average expected rather than the actual measurements then you go with measured data.

I see. I thought it was the other way around.


For commercial cow/calf operators #1 influence on Net Profit is pounds weaned per cow exposed. Fertility, live calf (ce & bw) calf vigor, weaning weight, $W.

Agreed. Yet at the same time, thats kinda like single trait selection IMHO. You have to fit your environment, but at the same time I feel you have to look out for the next guy too. Granted yes, they are buying off phenotype and pounds. Yes, EPD's on a yearling need to get proven. Most everything I look at has been 50K'd. I don't think that does a lot to carcass data. I know a guy who sells his cattle as fats. He doesn't buy a bull unless the marbling EPD (Angus bulls) is a +1.0 minimum because thats what his buyer told him to look for. Maybe he needed some help in that area, but that sounds awfully high IMHO. Carcass isn't top priority for me. Trying to maintain the sweet spot between production and fleshing ability for my environment is top. Mainly try to stay away from high milk, yet good WW & YW numbers. I don't mind spending a wee bit on supplemental feed, but if all your doing is trading pockets (more pounds but more cost) its not worth it either. Problem is everyone wants the bull that checks all the boxes and makes them out of my price range....or maybe Im just cheap, IDK. I try to watch everything though.

 

[Ebenezer]

progeny equivalents

heritability

 

[wbvs58]

With actual scans only compare within a herd, don't compare between herds as the feeding conditions will greatly influence the scan results.

Ken

 

[Stickney94]

Scan data in a bull sale would certainly weigh in my decision. I'd use it to validate the EPDs. If the scan was an outlier to the EPD data -- it could mean a number of things (epds are low accuracy, the bull is a genetic outlier, the scan was inaccurate) -- all of which likely would point me to look at other bulls in the sale.

However, we primarily use AI for breeding. I've learned to focus on AI sires that have actual carcass data reported (not just ultrasounds).