acclimating to fescue
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City Guy":348z5jgr said:
That is something that I don't quite understand. I can see feeding it for a short duration, if there's an issue, but just for good measure?!?
Its kinda like me taking a low dose of antibiotics so I won't catch a cold or anything else. So what happens if I really do get sick and do need antibiotics....I'm gonna need stronger antibiotics because I've built a resistance to them up already.
As mentioned already......low dose antibiotics is mostly for better growth. They give it to commercial chickens so they grow faster. So the next time you go to KFC you get your low dose of antibiotics.
Here's what I've been able to find out. The endophyte lowers the resistance to disease/infection. The CTC is supposed to help countering the affect of the lowered resistance. If it does in fact do that, I can see where that would increase weight gain. Kind of a cause and affect type of deal. The U of Arkansas published a study on it but all I've been able to find is a paper that talks to the affects of it as a presentation bullet. Can;t find the actual document that the presentation addresses.Banjo":2ox9ctrj said:
kickinbull
Well-known member
I agree that it's not a learned condition. JMOinyati13":45op6rpo said:
Red Bull Breeder
Well-known member
I don't use it year round. Mostly mid June threw September.
OK, I must be even dumber than I first thought! I have been under the impression that an animal's response to an environmental stimulus is either genetic or learned or some combination of the two. I'm I wrong?
Inyata13 and kickinbull believe that the endophyte tolerance is not learned and is therefore genetic. If that is true it means (to me at least) that a calf born in Wyoming with the proper genetics could be relocated to Missouri with no ill effects. Has that ever happened?
It also means that a calf born in Missouri with the wrong genetics would suffer the ill effects so long as it remained in the Show Me state. Has that ever happened?
I understand there is now a DNA test for endophyte tolerance which means that somebody has made a genetic connection. If it is completely genetic that means, to me at least, that the CTC and minerals are useless weapons in this fight, yet anecdotal evidence indicates that those things seem to help in some incidences. Go figure!
Inyata13 and kickinbull believe that the endophyte tolerance is not learned and is therefore genetic. If that is true it means (to me at least) that a calf born in Wyoming with the proper genetics could be relocated to Missouri with no ill effects. Has that ever happened?
It also means that a calf born in Missouri with the wrong genetics would suffer the ill effects so long as it remained in the Show Me state. Has that ever happened?
I understand there is now a DNA test for endophyte tolerance which means that somebody has made a genetic connection. If it is completely genetic that means, to me at least, that the CTC and minerals are useless weapons in this fight, yet anecdotal evidence indicates that those things seem to help in some incidences. Go figure!
inyati13
Well-known member
City Guy":1rkd5nia said:
Re: Fescue Tolerance or Acclimatization is not a learned response.
Fescue toxicosis is a metabolic issue. Not a cerebral issue. The toxins produced by fungi in the fescue (it is a symbiotic relationship) cause metabolic disorders,i.e., vasoconstriction.
1. A cow can adapt by acclimating. Their metabolism adjusts to a level of tolerance.
2. In regard to genetics, the cow has genes that provide them an inherent adaptation to metabolism of the toxins.
Red Bull Breeder
Well-known member
Real life some cows adjust some cows don't. If you don't like the advice you get don't take it. The CTC works.
inyati13
Well-known member
Personally, I want cows that are genetically armed to handle a reasonable level of fescue in their forage. Mine do fine on my forage. However, I have a diverse plant community in my pasture. Fescue is probably not over 60 % of my forage.
Not everyone is that fortunate. I think most producers cull their"fescue cows".
Not everyone is that fortunate. I think most producers cull their"fescue cows".
Fire Sweep Ranch
Well-known member
City Guy":290m2xeg said:
Yes, and yes. Many producers here find out the hard way that cattle from outside the fescue area do not always do well; weight loss, switch loss, and feet loss. The land next to us was recently leased by a man that bought 16 bred heifers to run on it. They came from a special cow sale, many put together from out of state. Of the 16, I would say at LEAST 4 have fescue toxicity. VERY thin, hair still on, and one is losing her foot (he thinks it is foot rot), but she has a huge abscess at the coronary band (hair and hoof junction) and the entire foot is swollen. They moved them to a different section of pasture so I do not see her daily, but I doubt she is still alive.
WE have had cattle that were born on our farm, that just did not thrive in the fescue. Shipped an Angus cow just a month or so ago, she never shucked her hair, always laid in the wet spots and had her mouth open and panting. As long as she stayed bred, I was OK with it. Her first calf was a heifer, and that heifer is now 3 (weaned her first calf months ago). The dam, Angus, failed to return to heat until about 90 days (calved in December), and with her overheating problems I decided to cull her (not before the extension got a blood card on her for the hair study we are in about fescue). Her daughter, the three year old, had a hard time conceiving. We AI'd her two times, and then she had to be bred to a young bull I had around to get her stuck. She calved in September, she is now due in December. I cut my nursing two year olds a little slack, but she is on her last one. This summer has been a hot one, and guess where I am finding her every day? In a pee spot, panting like mad. Looks like her productive career will end early also, like her dam.
IT IS GENETIC. This article (http://extension.missouri.edu/n/2799) talks about a study we are involved in to help identify data on cattle regionally, and how they adapt to fescue. I am excited to see the results, and hopefully learn something to help me battle this fescue beast.
Like Ron said, dilution is the easiest way. Unfortunately, fescue is king in this country and you must drill yearly to keep dilution of the fescue in a quantity that will do any good. Cattle will graze everything BUT the fescue first, so if they are in the same field all the time fescue is all that will survive.
KR Cattle Co
Active member
I checked my mineral tubs and did not see CTC listed. Fescue has been the most common forage in my area since the early days of fescue. During the winter I use the cheap mineral blocks and feed hay that is primarily fescue with no issues. Before the spring green up I put them on a high mag mineral until around the end of April. That is really the only thing I do to avoid issues with fescue. I have brought bulls in that have never had a bite of fescue and have never had an issue. I think we should be careful about leading people to believe cattle in the fescue belt are on low dose antibiotics. I am not saying it does not go. I am saying it is not as common as it sounds in this discussion.
Lucky_P
Well-known member
Banjo, I know you may have been speaking tongue in cheek... but it ain't funny.
There are no antibiotics in chicken (and, I'd like to hope the same goes for retail beef, pork, etc.) at KFC, any other restaurant, or the grocery. When mass medication of commercial poultry is necessary to combat a disease, it's administered at the appropriate dosage and established slaughter withdrawal times are followed. You are NOT getting a low-level dose of antibiotics in your meat.
Perdue's advertising campaign about 'no added steroids or hormones' in their chicken is so bogus... there are NO added steroids or hormones in ANY COMPANY'S chicken! They grow fast and big due to genetic selection(breeding) and feeding practices.
There are no antibiotics in chicken (and, I'd like to hope the same goes for retail beef, pork, etc.) at KFC, any other restaurant, or the grocery. When mass medication of commercial poultry is necessary to combat a disease, it's administered at the appropriate dosage and established slaughter withdrawal times are followed. You are NOT getting a low-level dose of antibiotics in your meat.
Perdue's advertising campaign about 'no added steroids or hormones' in their chicken is so bogus... there are NO added steroids or hormones in ANY COMPANY'S chicken! They grow fast and big due to genetic selection(breeding) and feeding practices.
http://www.raising-chickens.org/medicat ... -feed.html
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... rview.html
No, I wasn't joking. And it ain't funny.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... rview.html
No, I wasn't joking. And it ain't funny.
sim.-ang.king
Well-known member
Banjo":2dglyf8w said:
Go to your doctor and ask him for some lasalocid sodium, I bet you get a real funny look.
Lucky_P":1rp7ulf2 said:
I agree. The 'No added steroids or hormones' is misleading, because one of the growth factors besides the breeding, is antibiotics in the feed, i.e. medicated feed. We may be miscommunicating to some degree, there is a withdrawal time before slaughter, but only a week or so I think. We can believe it all(medication) leaves the system during withdrawal, but I don't think so.
Now, whether feedlots feed medicated feed or minerals to cattle or not, I'm not sure, but I would guess they do.
Feel free to prove me wrong about the chickens or cattle.
