ABS CE Stars/Magic number for CE?

[Air gator]

Just wondering about the ABS calving ease stars.
Hoover Dam is +8 for calving ease and -0.3 BW and has a four star calving ease rating.
PA Power Tool is +11 for CED and +1 for BW and has a four star CE rating
Substantial is +15 for CED and -1.8 for BW and has a three star CE rating.
Aviator is +17 for CED and -3.3 for BW and has a three star CE rating. (.83 for accuracy for BW).
Rockmount is +16 for CED and -1 for BW and has a four star CE rating. (85 accuracy for BW).

If you went by AAA numbers alone you might rule out Hoover Dam for heifers.
Broken Bow is +11 for CED and -1.1 for BW but ABS gives him 3 stars for CE .

My friend recommends at least +10 for CED and no more than +1.5 BW.

 

[Ky hills]

I think that what your friend recommends are good numbers, I have used bulls with less CED and as high as 2.1 for BW and been ok.
I am not a large producer, so I haven't had a lot of calves by those bulls, but have had some by several of them. Hoover Dam is one of my favorites, have had 8-10 by him, most from heifers, with no problems. Had a daughter of HD calve this morning, by the cleanup bull, her half brother also by HD. I have wondered if his drop in CED from 10-11 to 8 could be due in part to the cows/heifers he is being bred to. Used Rockmount on heifers this year, and Power Tool for cows. Some of the cows calves seem as small as the heifer's.
Since I have been selling bred heifers, I have learned to use the higher CED bulls, like you had been recommended, because if the bull's CED dropped it would hopefully still be 7 or above. I had some close calls on CEDs when I was using sons of Predestined and Missing Link, as there CEDs were 7-8 when I bought them and when there sires numbers dropped, I was left hoping they would still be 7 so I could still sell in the sale. A friend bought some of the heifers, and said they calved good.
The bull Special Focus, is one I used quite a bit too, with a 16 or more CED. I was told that one of those calves was born really small.

 

[Air gator]

Thanks, Ky Hills.
You are wise when it comes to sale heifers.
There was a big Simmental breeder who bought a bull in Canada and A.I'd all their sale heifers.
It was the definition of a train wreck. I think that is probably why they don't breed Simmentals anymore.
I bought embryos from a lady who loved Hoover Dam and recommended him for cows and heifers.
I am wondering if Deer Valley Patriot will keep his low CED epd. I like Connealy Capitalist but would rather wait on his accuracies.
Musgrave Aviator is another bull I am watching.

 

[Ky hills]

Thank you, I'm learning as I go along.

 

[Ebenezer]

Is extreme calving ease or extreme low birth weight the new Angus fad? Why do you want extreme when good or adequate works? I have found or noted two extremes on the mature cattle that result from extra low BW and high CED bulls. If they are the "curve benders", (and there are outliers in the breed which can have low BW and high growth), then these animals tend to get extra large. If they are low BW and low growth they make small and less useful cattle if the sires are prepotent and will do the same if they are not prepotent but if a breeder stacks generations of them. Breeding for extremes generally produce extremes.

We had a similar conversation going on at some other location of Cattle Today a week or so ago. This is a repeat so please overlook if you were in on the other discussion. The best bulls, cows, heifers or whatever we have had were selected for moderation and not for extremes. They are either of two groups: 1-prepotent breeders of a fixed type or 2- sitting in the middle under the bell curve with genes sorted and paired up in pretty good harmony. The sires in this group for us were/are generally + on BW and 0 or slightly lower on CED. If heifers 10 years ago could calve out calves from sires with BWs up to +3, then what is the problem today with the heifers or the sires? Are the EPDs that wrong or has something bad happened to heifers from mainstream bulls?

 

[Ky hills]

Ebenezer, I'm not sure whether you were referring to Air Gator, or me with your question. If it wasn't for me then I apologize.
I can't say whether or not extreme low birthweight is a fad of Angus or not. It is my understanding, and also have observed at sales
that low birthweights are in higher demand, at least here locally, than those with higher BW and lower CED's.
My first Angus bull purchase, had BW of 4.3, I think that was before CED's. I had as many calving issues with him as with some of my Charolais bulls. My next bull had a 7 CED and a 1.7 BW, had pretty good calving from him, but calf size was very varied, with a trend toward larger calves. So when I started selling bred heifers, I want to make every effort to help the buyers get a live calf on the ground, unassisted.
I like having calves coming easily, so I tend to stay with higher CED bulls even for cows. I am aware of the idea that they don't need to be really small out of cows, so that is why I chose the PA Power Tool bull to AI to cows. He has a 4 star calving mark, but his actual BW is 92 lbs. My thinking was with higher BW but still high ranking for calving ease, that he would be a good choice for cows.

 

[Air gator]

Ebenezer, There were two parts to my post. 1. The difference between CED epds and the calving ease star ratings ABS uses, and 2, a question of whether or not breeders had a "magic number" (whether it be CED or BW) for selecting bulls for heifers. I was not advocating for extreme low birth weight bulls, I was simply asking for feedback from experienced breeders.
If you look at some large breeders and they have flushmate sisters (or brothers) it seems that they keep the lower birthweight calf (unless the other calf is exceptional). Connealy Confidence has a +20 CED and a -3.3 for birthweight. If I had a cow or heifer with a large birthweight herself, why wouldn't I want to moderate the birthweight by using a bull like Confidence? Another thing to consider are the bulls who have a high CED epd as well as a high CEM epd. The bull with these I think of most frequently that fits this is Sav Bismarck. If breeders are "managing" cattle you are trying to get live calves and maintain the ability of heifers to calve without assistance. I like the idea of a a curve bender. A bull with a +10 CED and a YW epd of 100+. Not easy to find but why wouldn't you like a bull like that? (unless they are phenotypically a train wreck). I believe one of the reasons why you have so many breeds with black "purebred" animals (Limousin, Simmental, Gelbvieh, etc.) is because breeders were able to moderate Fullblood birthweights that had been unacceptable to bull buyers.

 

[Ebenezer]

I'm not sure whether you were referring to Air Gator, or me with your question.

No targets. Just seeing the whys and the whats.

Having all low BW cattle is a way to get out of part of the bull market and to focus on one fraction. Folks with commercial cows that buy in cows do not want or need low BW, in general. I guess I am wondering on the "want" or "need" portion of low BW selection from anyone to comment.

1. The difference between CED epds and the calving ease star ratings ABS uses

No idea but I do know from experience when a young star bull flops there are no rebates for the folks who found out as paying customers. Sales enhancement, most likely.

2, a question of whether or not breeders had a "magic number" (whether it be CED or BW) for selecting bulls for heifers. I was not advocating for extreme low birth weight bulls, I was simply asking for feedback from experienced breeders.

The background of the heifers are as important as the bull. If her mama or sire was a high BW it will show back up. And you have to trust the breeders who have submitted the data. A couple of folks have told me over the years how to skew data for a few hundred $s. So it must happen if it is discussed around and about.

If you look at some large breeders and they have flushmate sisters (or brothers) it seems that they keep the lower birthweight calf (unless the other calf is exceptional).

It can also be an indicator that they NEED lower BW? Any corrector bull, extreme selection or different type brought into an established herd or program has been chosen to fix KNOWN problems by the breeder or else the ourchase is a political deal. Why do you or I go to the store to buy bandaides? We have a skint place! Same for folks with umpteen bulls and tanks full of semen. They are looking for a quick cure of known needs.

Connealy Confidence has a +20 CED and a -3.3 for birthweight. If I had a cow or heifer with a large birthweight herself, why wouldn't I want to moderate the birthweight by using a bull like Confidence?
I do not want a cow or heifer with high BW because it will not be gone in one generation.

Another thing to consider are the bulls who have a high CED epd as well as a high CEM epd.
If needed on CED and I do like to be sure that a source, line or herd is trending positive on CEM. If not, watch out.

The bull with these I think of most frequently that fits this is Sav Bismarck.
I've heard about offspring and don't plan to use him. But I never planned to use him anyway.

If breeders are "managing" cattle you are trying to get live calves and maintain the ability of heifers to calve without assistance. I like the idea of a a curve bender. A bull with a +10 CED and a YW epd of 100+. Not easy to find but why wouldn't you like a bull like that? (unless they are phenotypically a train wreck). I believe one of the reasons why you have so many breeds with black "purebred" animals (Limousin, Simmental, Gelbvieh, etc.) is because breeders were able to moderate Fullblood birthweights that had been unacceptable to bull buyers.

Whole difference of philosophy on breeding. Classic genetic pattern: BW tied to YW and such. Curvebenders defy normal genetic trends. My question: will the genes stay stable in a non-classic genetic linkage? I really doubt it. Same type thing for high BW bred to low BW to get moderate BW. That is first generation hope. Go to classic second generation diagram of possible gene pairs; aa, aA, AA and Aa. Where is the stability of genetics? The bell curve gets wider and shorter in the 2nd generation: more potential differences.

Not disagreeing, just writing. I have a bullseye and aim for the center and have the hope of it getting all of the arrows.

 

[bse]

Ebenezer I have no Bismark or ever want any, but can't really pick out what you meen about him. With CED and CEM?

I think the stars are just something they throw in there, with everything else not sure its not just using up ink.

Magic CED in my opinion isn't one, for alot of heifer sales has to be 10 or above. For cows not something I pay that much attention to. For around here extension has drilled all that LBW in everyones head until its the only way, I do believe you keep stacking it and stacking it your headed for trouble.

 

[Ebenezer]

...but can't really pick out what you mean about him. With CED and CEM?

Neither.

 

[Air gator]

BSE,
I was referring to Sav Bismarck having a CED epd of +13 and a CEM epd of +15.
Most of the argument against using low BW bulls is that their heifers will lose the ability to calve a "normal" sized calf.