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A (seemingly) novel idea

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WalnutCrest

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From a friend who is thinking low input, low stress. He could not care less about pedigrees, color or polled status ... but he thinks lots about grass and forage availability ...

May 1, 2017 -- calves are born

July 15, 2017 -- existing bulls turned out with all cows and heifers for one final year

September 1, 2017 -- bulls pulled and sold

December 1, 2017 -- cows and heifers are preg checked, all 2017 calves are weaned; bull calves never castrated; open cows and heifers are sold

January 15, 2018 -- 2017 heifer calves turned back out with the cows

July 15, 2018 -- all 2017 bull calves turned out with all cows and heifers

September 1, 2018 -- all 2017 bulls are pulled and sold

December 1, 2018 -- 2018 calves weaned, cows and heifers preg checked and opens sold

...etc...

Run a closed herd, letting the most vigorous and fertile (and fastest growing) cattle breed. Cull for temperament as needed. (Maybe) never have to buy another bull again.
 

Nesikep

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I think it might work, but may need a little more management on the bulls, and without a LARGE herd, might end up with problems after a shorter while with that kind of breeding.. also, you'll never know what bull sired which calves, etc.

Around here the weaning time wouldn't work too well, markets are usually down because of bad weather for transporting, etc, but with that late a calving time you would be leaving money on the table weaning at much younger an age... Everyone is free to try what they want though, and it would be interesting to see how it works
 

Jeanne - Simme Valley

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So bulls are breeding sisters & dams. What is gained by this? Bulls will be 16 month old and sold in September. Is there a "great" market for bulls in September. Is this his way of being able to raise & to sell older bulls? I just don't understand what he is trying to accomplish. What am I missing? If I turned my heifers back out with the herd in 45 days, I can pretty well guarantee I would have some calves back sucking. To each his own.
 

Stocker Steve

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1) With my cattle - - a 7/15 turnout will result in a lot of calves starting about 4/16.
2) I have found that breeding season is extended by relying on yearling bulls.
3) One can buy a (black!) AI sired 2 year old bull here for $1.00 to $1.10 per pound. That is easier to me than overwintering bulls.
4) Weaning too early unless cow feed is expensive.
5) No justification for preg check in a low input system.

Good goal - - bad plan.
 

talltimber

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Only downside readily apparent to me would be the heifers might start to suck again. Line breeders don't think twice about breeding brothers, sisters, dams, sires, cousins every which way. No problem there, in and of itself? Seven months is plenty old enough to wean. My oldest calves were seven months, some 5.5. They are all doing fine, but they had grass. I dont think selling off open cows before winter would be a bad call to limit inputs in the winter? Selling bigger bulls, they may would go to slaughter. They additional weight would make them bring more than they would as calves I would think?
 

Son of Butch

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WalnutCrest":3b1hk3ft said:
From a friend..... He could not care less about pedigrees...
July 15, 2017 -- existing bulls turned out with all cows and heifers for one final year

September 1, 2017 -- bulls pulled and sold

July 15, 2018 -- all 2017 bull calves turned out with all cows and heifers

September 1, 2018 -- all 2017 bulls are pulled and sold

...etc... and repeat?

Run a closed herd..... Cull for temperament as needed. (Maybe) never have to buy another bull again.
And never sells a calf crop?

I will give him credit for thinking outside of the box.... but there is no reason to reinvent the wheel with a bad plan.
Whose successful program is he basing this on? Seems his main goal is to never buy a bull again.
Since he doesn't care about pedigrees, I question the quality of his existing starter herd and bulls.
The herd is going to run into major inbreeding suppression and intensive inbreeding of a random herd = a lot of culls.

IF he wants to give it a go for 1 year/rotation, I believe he'll find selling 2018 bull calves and taking that money to buy
new bulls in 2019 will be more profitable than repeating the cycle.
 

Son of Butch

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talltimber":3qiki70y said:
Line breeders don't think twice about breeding brothers, sisters, dams, sires, cousins every which way.
Actually Breeders do a lot of Thinking about which dams and sires to use when line breeding and never mate them
without a reason, it is not just because they are 1/2 brothers and 1/2 sisters and I don't want to buy a bull.

Someone that doesn't care about pedigrees doesn't care about which dams or sires to use and are just inbreeding them
willy nilly because they can, with out any genuine plan.
 

M.Magis

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Only problem I see is wintering all those bulls. May as well keep the best and sell the rest. No sense in feeding the ones not needed.
 

talltimber

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SOB, you conveniently quit quoting a sentence too quick didn't you?

"No problem there, in and of itself?"

When they have their picks lined up, do they think twice about breeding brothers, sisters, dams, sires, cousins? Surely you don't need a pedigree link? I know you don't because you seem pretty knowledgeable, more so than me, which is not saying much, and I know what linebreeding is. Just because his pick is not your pick does not automatically make it wrong. You ever hear of dumb luck? Anyway with that many bulls, surely one will hit, eventually.

Ye of so little faith. Someone has to be the groundbreaker.
 

Son of Butch

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talltimber":3btc15tf said:
Do you have a link or just a recommendation for some reading on that SOB?
I was just looking for data/link I believe it was from U of Mn on study of dairy cattle... but I haven't found it yet.
From memory the 3 things that stuck out to me were...
Inbreeding increased calf mortality, increased age at puberty through retarded growth and increased heifer cull rate
prior to 1st calving.

I'll continue to search for documentation... as for a reading recommendation google the Bullvine.
The "Bullvine" has been a good source for dairymen and has published articles on managing inbreeding in dairy cattle.
It seems dairy breeders have done a much better job collecting and analyzing data than beef breeders.
 

talltimber

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Thank you.
I searched briefly and found an article from OSU that mentioned the percentage of opens would increase even more than what the stillbirths did. I did not see a reason why, unless they were counting replacement heifers not gettin bred due to their growth being retarded and not reaching puberty in time.
 

Son of Butch

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Culling an open heifer or a heifer with too small of pelvic area... at least you still get a salvage value.
A stillborn calf or a calf death from poor vigor or immune system health = a whole year lost.
The Holstein breed has experienced a serious increase in calf mortality over the last 30 years due to increased inbreeding.
 

GAonmymind

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Neville Gregory, Animal Welfare and Meat Production is the title of the book
 

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