A question for MM: Endotoxin stacking

[Farmgirl]

Had a discussion with our vet last week about vaccines and had a follow up discussion with a Pfizer vet today about their specific products. He mentioned something called "endotoxin stacking". He mentioned gram negative bacteria vaccines. I did some reading since then and think I have a pretty good idea of what he was talking about. Question is, the Pfizer vet was discussing the various vaccines and giving them a specific "score" relative to endotoxin stacking.

Do you know how the score was arrived at or have a list of scores for different vaccines?

Thanks,
Farmgirl

 

[Farmgirl]

Anyone else have info on this?

Thanks,
Farmgirl

 

[milkmaid]

I didn't see this until just now, not sure how I missed seeing it yesterday. To be honest, I wasn't familiar with it so I looked it up real quick (and for those who also aren't sure what endotoxin stacking is, here's a link: http://www.vet.ksu.edu/features/VetQuar ... QSum03.pdf).

It does say that:

• "He classified bacterial agents by their tendency to result in an endotoxic reaction: highly reactive – Campylobacter (Vibrio), Moraxella, E. coli and Salmonella; moderately reactive – Haemophilus; less reactive – Lepto, Mannheimia haemolytica, Pasteurella multocida. He also gave some recommendations for combining gram-negative components in a vaccination program: No more than two gram-negatives at one time in dairy breeds; no more than three gram-negatives at one time in beef breeds. Five-way Lepto equals one gram negative."

But I suspect that's not what you're looking for. A quick search online isn't turning up a score sheet for each vaccine... I'll see if my vet books have anything more to say about it, but I tend to think the best you'll get is the list above putting them into catagories of highly, moderately, and less reactive. Just check the vaccine labels to see how many endotoxins you're putting into the animal at once.

Note that Vibrio and Lepto are commonly given together (even included in the same vacc) and that would be two gram-negatives at once. Moraxella is the common cause of pinkeye. E. coli and Salmonella would likely be in your scours vaccinations. The others like Pasteurella aren't in the usual vaccines everyone gives.

 

[Farmgirl]

Thanks MM,

I saw the KSU article. It seems the Pfizer vet said Bovi-Shield Gold FP5 L5 was 3 gram-negatives. From this list I don't see it.

We discussed vaccinating for Somnus, Bl, and possibly a Spirovac in addition to the BSG mentioned above. WE don't give a vibrio since we do all AI and no Pasturella vaccine.

Thanks,
Farmgirl

 

[milkmaid]

Bovishield Gold FP 5 L5 has the five strains of lepto, and the 5 virals... BVD (I and II), IBR, PI3, and BRSV. Unless I'm really missing something, there's only one gram-negative in that vaccine as there's no way the viruses can contribute to endotoxin stacking. Toxins come from bacteria (ie the clostridiums, ecoli, etc)... pretty sure viruses don't release toxins or have toxins that can be put in a vaccine. Not positive though.

I would be interested to know if and how reactive the standard 7 or 8 way vaccine is, as clostridiums do release toxins (ie tetanus, botulism, C&D enterotoxemia). Wonder if it could contribute to endotoxin stacking?

 

[Farmgirl]

MM,

Are you sure the clostridiums contribute? The KSU article doesn't mention it. The Pfizer vet didn't mention it either. I thought the gram negatives were bacterins not virals?

How do you figure the BSG has two grams negative? I thought that lepto was the only one? I think the KSU article says that a 5 way lepto is one gram. Not trying to argue but want to understand better.

Thanks,
Farmgirl

 

[milkmaid]

Oh... you're right. I was thinking of what I normally use; Bovishield Gold 5 FP VL5. That would have two gram-neg vaccines; vibrio and the lepto combo. The BG 5 L5 only has one gram-neg. And yes, gram-negs are bacteria to the best of my knowledge, and while I don't know what virals are, I don't think they fall into the gram-neg toxin catagory.

I'm not positive the clostridiums contribute... I'm merely wondering if they do. I know those bacteria do emit toxins but I don't know if they'd add to the endotoxin stacking that's previously mentioned.

 

[Farmgirl]

MM,

OK, that is consistent with what the vet said. I know he said that pasturella, vibrio, lepto, e coli, somunus, and salmenella contribute endotoxins and he specifically said the bacterias. That is consistent with the KSU article. My husbands sister is a small animal vet in another state. Maybe I will ask her sometime.

Thanks,
Farmgirl