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Caustic Burno

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Maybe, maybe not, the US Constitution doesn't really say if a state has to stay in the Union. Lee believed in not raising a hand against his home of Virginia, that doesn't seem to traitorous to me.
My ancestors were called traitors when raised arms against the Crown, but here we are living in a country they created after they rebelled.
I had ancestors fighting in that Civil War as well. The Scots-Irish were born fighting as Senator Webb wrote.
 

Caustic Burno

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Maybe, maybe not, the US Constitution doesn't really say if a state has to stay in the Union. Lee believed in not raising a hand against his home of Virginia, that doesn't seem to traitorous to me.
My ancestors were called traitors when raised arms against the Crown, but here we are living in a country they created after they rebelled.
Our hypocrisy is pretty thick here. As a country we have provided assistance to other countries Civil Wars and secession from each other.
This is goose gander .
 

TexasBred

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Maybe, maybe not, the US Constitution doesn't really say if a state has to stay in the Union. Lee believed in not raising a hand against his home of Virginia, that doesn't seem to traitorous to me.
My ancestors were called traitors when raised arms against the Crown, but here we are living in a country they created after they rebelled.
I do believe the very war we are discussing settled that point.
 

RDFF

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In NO WAY am I suggesting that I believe slavery is acceptable or ought to be tolerated, EVER.

However, the central issue over which the Civil War was fought was NOT primarily slavery, (if it truly was, then why did Lincoln's emancipation proclamation only intend to free the slaves that were held by those rebelling States under the Confederacy? Economic crippling is a standard tactic in war against your enemy. The emancipation proclamation was an act of war by the Union against the Confederacy...

Emancipation Proclamation (pbs.org).....

Understanding States' Rights and the 10th Amendment (thoughtco.com))..........

The Civil War was fought by the South over the sovereignty of the States over and against that of the Federal government, where the Constitution reserved rights and authority to them under the 10th Amendment... States rights.

This issue had been simmering since the Constitution was written, but had begun to reach a boiling point in the 30 years preceding the Civil War... brought about at that time through federally imposed tariffs (think now about why the Revolutionary War was fought... unfair tariffs...) ...which unfairly impacted the agriculturally based economies of the southern states in favor of the industrially based economies of the northern states. Lee believed in States rights... and was willing to fight... and die if necessary, to maintain, enforce and protect the higher authority of the States, and to reign in what he saw as the oppressive hand of a burgeoning central federal authority. THAT is the reason that he famously could not fight for the federal government "AGAINST his Virginia". Essentially, the Civil War was fought by the South for the same reason that the Revolutionary War was fought over against the British. Power, and freedom from oppression. Remember too, that this was a time not THAT far removed historically from the end of that first great war in our nations history, where famous phrases like "Give me liberty, or give me death" had been enshrined. These issues were intrinsically and inseparably embedded in the DNA of these men. Honorable men like Lee saw the growing danger in this increasing "centralizing of power", and were willing, just as those who came before them, to die in order to preserve the authority of the individual States, granted to them through the efforts of the Revolutionary War, and the Constitution. Because the Confederacy was ultimately forced into surrender through military power, that oppressive hand of the federal government remained and became entrenched in history, continues to this day, and currently is viewed almost universally by our citizenry as the "higher authority".

One way that the federal government maintains this "control" over the States is the same way that it has grown to find "control" even over its citizens.................... MONEY (remember the statement I made above... "economic crippling [or dependency] is a standard tactic of war against your enemy". Federal "handout programs".... make people.... AND STATES.... beholden to the government, and dependent upon it, and it thereby wins power and control.

Be careful what you wish for. And think long and hard about all those bail outs and subsidies.
 

TexasBred

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In NO WAY am I suggesting that I believe slavery is acceptable or ought to be tolerated, EVER.

However, the central issue over which the Civil War was fought was NOT primarily slavery, (if it truly was, then why did Lincoln's emancipation proclamation only intend to free the slaves that were held by those rebelling States under the Confederacy? Economic crippling is a standard tactic in war against your enemy. The emancipation proclamation was an act of war by the Union against the Confederacy...

Emancipation Proclamation (pbs.org).....

Understanding States' Rights and the 10th Amendment (thoughtco.com))..........

The Civil War was fought by the South over the sovereignty of the States over and against that of the Federal government, where the Constitution reserved rights and authority to them under the 10th Amendment... States rights.

This issue had been simmering since the Constitution was written, but had begun to reach a boiling point in the 30 years preceding the Civil War... brought about at that time through federally imposed tariffs (think now about why the Revolutionary War was fought... unfair tariffs...) ...which unfairly impacted the agriculturally based economies of the southern states in favor of the industrially based economies of the northern states. Lee believed in States rights... and was willing to fight... and die if necessary, to maintain, enforce and protect the higher authority of the States, and to reign in what he saw as the oppressive hand of a burgeoning central federal authority. THAT is the reason that he famously could not fight for the federal government "AGAINST his Virginia". Essentially, the Civil War was fought by the South for the same reason that the Revolutionary War was fought over against the British. Power, and freedom from oppression. Remember too, that this was a time not THAT far removed historically from the end of that first great war in our nations history, where famous phrases like "Give me liberty, or give me death" had been enshrined. These issues were intrinsically and inseparably embedded in the DNA of these men. Honorable men like Lee saw the growing danger in this increasing "centralizing of power", and were willing, just as those who came before them, to die in order to preserve the authority of the individual States, granted to them through the efforts of the Revolutionary War, and the Constitution. Because the Confederacy was ultimately forced into surrender through military power, that oppressive hand of the federal government remained and became entrenched in history, continues to this day, and currently is viewed almost universally by our citizenry as the "higher authority".

One way that the federal government maintains this "control" over the States is the same way that it has grown to find "control" even over its citizens.................... MONEY (remember the statement I made above... "economic crippling [or dependency] is a standard tactic of war against your enemy". Federal "handout programs".... make people.... AND STATES.... beholden to the government, and dependent upon it, and it thereby wins power and control.

Be careful what you wish for. And think long and hard about all those bail outs and subsidies.
I see you've been reading the "lost cause" B.S. The confederacy was fighting to not only maintain slavery but extend it into any new states coming into the union. The union was fighting to preserve the union.
 

TennesseeTuxedo

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I see you've been reading the "lost cause" B.S. The confederacy was fighting to not only maintain slavery but extend it into any new states coming into the union. The union was fighting to preserve the union.
Slavery has been around for thousands of years. In fact, it has never not been practiced in some corner of the world or other. Today is no exception.
 

Lee VanRoss

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George III signed with 13 States as Individual Entities thus recognizing 13 nation states. Whether intended or not the act served to give the lesser
states equality with the likes of New York and Virginia. The dispicable act of declaring a slave as half a man was a recipe for political , social and
economic disaster. Would we have succeeded as a Republic had we followed a different course? Was, is there a purpose of tieing this nation of
free men together with the blood of slaves? The brevity of time set for me and my position in the affairs of man does not allow me to answer.
That table has been set and the meal consumed. It is time to reset the table and give praise as one voice for the bounty before us. LVR
 

noltrh

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Like anybody and anything you can find ”proof“ on the internet for whatever side of the story your looking for. Fact is none of us were around then and none of us are perfect. He fought for what he believed in and so many of us may someday or on a smaller scale have already been in his shoes. Whatever side we were fighting against thought they were right too.

The issue of slavery was complex and while it is never right to own another human there was a lot more to it than that. In that day and time they were their tractors basically. They weren’t fighting for the right to own another person they were fighting for their livelihood. If they told you tomorrow everything you use to make a living and feed your family was against the law would you stand up and fight. Also anybody who thinks that when they crossed the Mason Dixon line they were free and equal is very mistaken. They might have thought you shouldn’t own them but they sure were not treated as equal. A large portion of the south didn’t own them and sure weren’t fighting so the rich guys could. That’s like taking up arms so Jeff Bezos can keep Amazon and if they outlawed computers tomorrow don’t you think he and Gates wouldn’t lead the cries for war. There was a lot more to the war then that one factor and one view. A different time and circumstances than any of us can relate to based on thousand of years before that of mankinds existence we certainly are to far removed from to grasp. An ugly time in our past but one so very critical to remember.
Agree! Civil war had little todo with slavery. Same as today. Problem is federal intervention.
 

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