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A flash in the pan?

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Alan

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I agree with you, Christian! Interesting mix of pedigree, but it also makes me worry about consistency in his offspring. As you said, he's worth watching, but I'd wait for another year or two of data before using him.

George

I didn't want to hijack my own thread, so this is a quote from the Revolution thread that got me thinking... it hurts me to think :D . As stated I met up with the Genex rep at a sale I went to Sunday. He was saying that he can't keep CRR About Time semen in, orders are flying out the door. It was mentioned waiting a year or 2 on data, but so many seem to chase flashes in the pan. I'll try to be careful an choose my words carefully, I not trying to insult or degrade any bulls or breeder. But it seems so many breeders are chasing these flashes.... I'll wait to name bulls, but several come to mind.... and for the record About Time is just a flash at this point, time will tell if he burns bright for some years.

Thoughts?

JMO,
Alan
 

showing71

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I agree with you to an extent. If it wasn't for those chasing the new bulls, we wouldn't have the info on them in 2 years or so. I do find it hard sometimes to stay away from the 'hot, new' bulls, because some of them would fit in perfectly with my idea of what I want in my cattle. But better accuracy provides better info, and I'd rather be safe than sorry with a proven sire. (JMO)
 

Avalon

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showing71":10iblu26 said:
I agree with you to an extent. If it wasn't for those chasing the new bulls, we wouldn't have the info on them in 2 years or so. I do find it hard sometimes to stay away from the 'hot, new' bulls, because some of them would fit in perfectly with my idea of what I want in my cattle. But better accuracy provides better info, and I'd rather be safe than sorry with a proven sire. (JMO)
Excellent point! :clap: Someone has to jump out there and take chance. Those that are not willing should be happy to collect data from those who are. However we all must realize the cost of whatever we do however we decide to do it. I'm always grateful for the guys who aly the ground work for me to know who not to breed to as well as who to breed to.
 

Herefords.US

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The real proof that a herd bull is REALLY worth a damn comes when his daughters go into production, IMNTBHO.

That primary criteria of selection requires that a bull be pretty well "proven" before my using him via AI. A "mistake" can cause several years of breeding to be scrapped. I prefer a degree of certainty rather than rolling the dice.

George
 

Alan

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showing71":1z57f7r8 said:
I agree with you to an extent. If it wasn't for those chasing the new bulls, we wouldn't have the info on them in 2 years or so. I do find it hard sometimes to stay away from the 'hot, new' bulls, because some of them would fit in perfectly with my idea of what I want in my cattle. But better accuracy provides better info, and I'd rather be safe than sorry with a proven sire. (JMO)

You make a very good point and I completly agree, a bull is nothing without data... someone has to provide it. I guess my view comes from my struggles, and my unwillingness to chase the next greatest bull.

But I complete agree with your opinion.

Alan
 

bigbull338

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as a reg breeder i do not follow the fad bloodlines.i go with a buy the proven bloodlines.the fad bloodlines come from people that breed show heifers an steers.when i buy cows i buy the best bloodlines i can get.
 

rocket2222

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I'm one of those dumb suckers who will take a chance on a young bull, after you've screwed up a couple of times and wasted a couple of years, hopefully you learn, it should help speed up your learning curve, as to what you should be looking for. You also need to know what your cows are capable of doing to be able to evaluate the bulls calves. The nice thing about a proven bull is if your not getting what others are from the bull, or they are not what you want, it might be time for upgrade of the cow herd kind, and not necessarily a change in the choice of bulls.
 

showing71

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rocket2222":unknbmgb said:
I'm one of those dumb suckers who will take a chance on a young bull, after you've screwed up a couple of times and wasted a couple of years, hopefully you learn, it should help speed up your learning curve, as to what you should be looking for. You also need to know what your cows are capable of doing to be able to evaluate the bulls calves. The nice thing about a proven bull is if your not getting what others are from the bull, or they are not what you want, it might be time for upgrade of the cow herd kind, and not necessarily a change in the choice of bulls.
I wouldn't say dumb sucker, I think just gutsy. If I find a new bull I really like, I'll take a chance. If it doesn't work, I'm out a year and only have myself to blame. If it does work, then :banana: .
 

novaman

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I can't disagree that using proven bulls is the best way to go. However, a bull doesn't become proven without first taking a chance on that bull. If your cow herd is where you want them I would certainly use nothing but a proven bull you know works well. My problem is I'm never satisfied with the genetics in my herd. I always want to advance the genetics. For that reason, I tend to take a risk on new genetics that may not necessarily be proven. I think the key is using the new genetics on a small portion of the herd to get a "taste". I'm not sure about the beef side of it but on the dairy AI sires they are now using genomic evaluations. Young sires are now in the 65-75% accuracy range with no calves on the ground. That's far from proven but it makes taking a chance a lot less risky.
 

Herefords.US

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Speaking of "About Time", this Saturday Double L is selling some cows (from Churchill Cattle Co) with some of the first About Time calves at side.(lot #3 and Lot #4). I was hoping that they'd show the calves in their videos, but they only have the cows in those two videos, so far. :( I'm not going to get to go to the sale, but I hope someone who does will post their impressions of those About Time calves here.

I sure like the Lot #7 cow and her Yankee heifer calf at side(7a). The videos can be viewed here:
http://cattleinmotion.com/videos-dbll-090502

George
 

herefordchick

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Have you seen this video on CRR's web page. It's not About Times calves but some calves bred the same way from the same herd.

http://www.coyoteridgeherefords.com/females.html

I think you will find between his owners - he was used pretty extensively for a young bull last year and we might get some decent accuracies on him quicker than you think.

If he follows his sire the BW will hold if he follows the dam side look for it to jump some - but I don't think hes gonna prove out to throw giant calves like some of the show bulls from years past turned out to be. I'd be willing to gamble on using him on some cows and maybe an occasional large frame heifer. I doubt if he had a twin brother that CRR forgot to tell us about................

If I wasn't soo pleased with my Durango and Nasdaq calves and down on cow numbers I would definitely be using him. It's very hard for me to overlook how much better Durango's numbers are getting with each evaluation. Then again if I had used Nasdaq when I first thought about it I would have daughters in production instead of just the first calves on the ground now.

Just my two cents.
 

Northern Rancher

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Well at least I hope we've progressed from using the latest greatest showring dictated mistake-using young bulls in several different management schemes and situations is definately the way to prove him. One thing I think most people don't realize is that cattle are alot better on the average now that they were 40 years ago-we went from the horse and buggy days of genetic improvement to pretty much the space age- there really isn't any new bull that's going to move a herd dramatically-I think if one can tweak a couple traits in a positive direction that's a pretty good goal. The old adage 'If it's too good to be true-it probably isn't' certainly holds true. On our place we usually either turn a young bull out with everything a few days early to get a cross section or use him on some pooorer cows-I like a bull that makes things better/easier for me-if he can fix some udders and feet and throw daughters that don't eat or milk themselves out of a home that's good enough.
 

KNERSIE

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there really isn't any new bull that's going to move a herd dramatically

That depends on how well the breeder understands his needs. Often the herd improver bull looks very mediocre on paper, but his genetic make up nicks so well with the cowherd that he improves just about everything he is bred to. I have discovered a bull like that a few years ago that has changed the whole direction of my breeding program. When I started using him hard most others frowned, now they have all started buying his semen. Luckily I've had two calf crops out of him already with the 3rd only six weeks away with enough semen in the tank to use him 2 more seasons.
 

SRBeef

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I want to say thank you to the posters in this informative (to a beginner) thread.

There is none of the name calling and personality comments as in the MSU thread.

As an observer I think there is much to be said for the dramatic improvement in BULLS in recent years. A lot of data taken and applied.

However I am not sure there as been as dramatic an improvement in COWS. Maybe because it takes longer when you only have one calf a year to judge changes.

I am looking for a MODERATE milking, easy early (one cycle) calving, 1200 lb Hereford cow with good feed conversion, good disposition and good meat on her calves. I think there has been much said about not need excessive milk.

This seems tougher to find (compared to evaluating a bull) when you have only one sample to evaluate every year. jmho.

Jim
 

KNERSIE

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However I am not sure there as been as dramatic an improvement in COWS. Maybe because it takes longer when you only have one calf a year to judge changes.

The cowherd is a living reminder of all the faults we've made in the past with bull selections.
 

Brandonm22

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northtexas":1tj8hf6z said:
To breed good maternal cattle one must by nature wait a few years until the bulls female offspring have been in production a few years. What is dangerous is breeding to show bull X or EPD wonder X and have his genes spread thick through your herd only to find out 6 years later his female offspring develop bottle tits, or are prone to prolapse, or have eye problems.

No thank you, I'll stick to proven bulls.

That has kind of become a problem though. To REALLY KNOW what a bull is going to do you need to see AT LEAST 5 year old daughters out in the pasture that means he would be at least 7 by then. It seems like a lot of the popular bulls in recent years for one reason or another aren't widely commercially available by then. And to really know anything about cow longevity (probably the most economically important trait to commercial cattlemen) we need to see some 11 and 12 year old daughters so you would be looking at roughly the 1995 bull crop and earlier.
 

Arkieman

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northtexas":v6vjnxuz said:
>>I am looking for a MODERATE milking, easy early (one cycle) calving, 1200 lb Hereford cow with good feed conversion, good disposition and good meat on her calves. I think there has been much said about not need excessive milk.<<

No thank you, I'll stick to proven bulls.

Who would you suggest (that is readily available) to use on 1100-1200 lb Angus cows? One that's stood the test of time?

Thanks
 

iowahawkeyes

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We're using Ribeye on the heifers. Cyrus (from Trausch Farms) and About Time on the cows.
 
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