a few pics

[3waycross]

the first picture tells the tell,, the bottom line for a rancher..... does he need to be told by us the bull is no good??? dont think so

The first picture tells us one thing definitively. The bull is fertile. Little else! There is not a darned thing wrong with those calves. On the other hand there doesn't appear to be anything remarkable about them either.

right and thats why they will wind up on the rail... and not in the show ring

I never said anything about the show ring. However for me it is important that they do look remarkable. I am not selling 150 uniform calves a year at the local sale barn. I am trying to sell bulls. One thing is for sure when someone looks at a bull they ain't gonna say wow lets buy that one he is "unremarkable". My unremarkable calves get their nuts knocked off and go to the sale as culls or fed for freezer beef.

We all post here based on our own perspective. For what it's worth that's mine.

 

[TexasBred]

If you don't want the comments then don't post the dam pictures.

Sounds like a reasonable policy. :cboy:

It would be nice if everyone stuck to Grandma's policy, "if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all". Then again all sorts of things would be nice. The nature of this sight would indicate that unrequested, unflattering evaluations are a sure bet, and the nature of the personal investment people have in their livestock will ensure any evaluations that even infer a deficiency are going to risk being perceived as insulting. On the other hand, it could be beneficial if less than flattering evaluations are taken as an opportunity to become more thorough in the evaluation of livestock.

I don't care how long anyone has owned stock or been in the business there is always more to be learned and there is always room to improve our observational abilities. There is a world of difference between "looking" and "seeing". I work on narrowing the gap every time I look at an animal. That's the great opportunity of this sight, to share what every one see's and potentially learn from it. :cboy:

Great post, Dylan.

I've come full circle on this subject. I used to be a big believer in Grandma's policy in all circumstances. Now I see the value in contructive criticism, especially on a site like this where many people come to learn and ask questions. On the other hand, there are those that always seek to build themselves up by tearing others down. Not just here but in all walks of life. Knowing the difference is the hard part.

A lot of it has to do with our frame of mind at the time we hear it too...today we get PO'd about it. Tomorrow it might be exactly what we needed to hear. And the message was the same both days.

 

[Dylan Biggs]

It would be nice if everyone stuck to Grandma's policy, "if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all". Then again all sorts of things would be nice. The nature of this sight would indicate that unrequested, unflattering evaluations are a sure bet, and the nature of the personal investment people have in their livestock will ensure any evaluations that even infer a deficiency are going to risk being perceived as insulting. On the other hand, it could be beneficial if less than flattering evaluations are taken as an opportunity to become more thorough in the evaluation of livestock.

I don't care how long anyone has owned stock or been in the business there is always more to be learned and there is always room to improve our observational abilities. There is a world of difference between "looking" and "seeing". I work on narrowing the gap every time I look at an animal. That's the great opportunity of this sight, to share what every one see's and potentially learn from it. :cboy:

Great post, Dylan.

I've come full circle on this subject. I used to be a big believer in Grandma's policy in all circumstances. Now I see the value in contructive criticism, especially on a site like this where many people come to learn and ask questions. On the other hand, there are those that always seek to build themselves up by tearing others down. Not just here but in all walks of life. Knowing the difference is the hard part.

A lot of it has to do with our frame of mind at the time we hear it too...today we get PO'd about it. Tomorrow it might be exactly what we needed to hear. And the message was the same both days.

And in addition how it is said, diplomacy can go along way, and the better part of diplomacy are the words chosen to relay the message. You can call a bull a "funnel butt" or you could say that he is "a little light and a little narrow in the hind". Depending on the day, like you say, a different choice of words, can make a big difference.

 

[dun]

Diplomacy is the ability to tell someone to go to He** in such a way that they look forward to the trip

 

[Dylan Biggs]

right and thats why they will wind up on the rail... and not in the show ring

The show ring appraisal depending on the Judge can be totally cosmetic and detached from functional ability in which case the appraisal is only show ring relevant. Alacowman is stating that ultimately "beauty is as beauty does" and as the bulls progeny can attest the bull has done the job required of him.

By the same token though there are visual appraisals, show ring or not that are based on an awareness of the correlation between phenotypic expression (form) and functional efficiency whether maternally, on feed or on the rail.

Typically cattle that yield very well are sired by bulls with a definite visual amount of muscle, in my experience cows that do better on poor quality forage are sired by bulls with a full well developed muzzle, depth of heart girth, rib and flank, and from a fertility standpoint in general bulls that score better on semen evaluations are bulls that exhibit higher degree of secondary masculine character. Crest, muscle expression and definition, certain hair texture patterns, and on non black bulls visually apparent specific color differentiation patterns, etc, etc. In addition these bulls in general tend to sire more fertile female offspring.

Some may say this is a bunch of hog wash, all I can say is after going on 30 plus years of correlating these attributes to overall functional ability with our own sire selection processes and resulting female performance, I know there is a correlation worth paying attention to. It is not always 100%, but there are definite trends and tendencies that when combined with optimal management are of definite value.

:cboy:

 

[Dylan Biggs]

Diplomacy is the ability to tell someone to go to He** in such a way that they look forward to the trip

Perfect! :lol2: :lol2:

 

[robert]

Diplomacy is the ability to tell someone to go to He** in such a way that they look forward to the trip

Classic..... :clap:

 

[upfrombottom]

The way I see it, it doesn't matter if your operation is a cow calf, club calf, or bull calf, and you have the sharpest bull pictures on the web, but he can't produce, your going to have plenty of room in your wallet for more pictures.

 

[Dylan Biggs]

right and thats why they will wind up on the rail... and not in the show ring

The show ring appraisal depending on the Judge can be totally cosmetic and detached from functional ability in which case the appraisal is only show ring relevant. Alacowman is stating that ultimately "beauty is as beauty does" and as the bulls progeny can attest the bull has done the job required of him.

By the same token though there are visual appraisals, show ring or not that are based on the correlation between phenotypic expression and functional efficiency whether maternally, on feed or on the rail.

Typically cattle that yield very well are sired by bulls with a definite visual amount of muscle, in my experience cows that do better on poor quality forage are sired by bulls with a full well developed muzzle, depth of heart girth, rib and flank, and from a fertility standpoint in general bulls that score better on semen evaluations are bulls that exhibit higher degree of secondary masculine character. Crest, muscle expression and definition, certain hair texture patterns, and on non black bulls visually apparent specific color differentiation patterns, etc, etc. In addition these bulls in general tend to sire more fertile female offspring.

Some may say this is a bunch of hog wash, all I can say is after going on 30 plus years of correlating these attributes to overall functional ability with our own sire selection processes and resulting female performance, I know there is a correlation worth paying attention to. It is not always 100%, but there are definite trends and tendencies that when combined with optimal management are of definite value.

:cboy:

 

[ALACOWMAN]

yeah,, i already read that on that on the 3rd page.... i dont question your credentials.. nor a man that makes his living ranching

 

[Dylan Biggs]

yeah,, i already read that on that on the 3rd page.... i dont question your credentials.. nor a man that makes his living ranching

Just wanted to see what your respose might be, ultimatley the genetic lottery is a gamble at the best of times anyway, but it gives a guy a bit of a sense, false or not, that there may be a a way to improve the odds in ones favor even if just a little. :cboy:

 

[ALACOWMAN]

yeah,, i already read that on that on the 3rd page.... i dont question your credentials.. nor a man that makes his living ranching

Just wanted to see what your respose might be, ultimatley the genetic lottery is a gamble at the best of times anyway, but it gives a guy a bit of a sense, false or not, that there may be a a way to improve the odds in ones favor even if just a little. :cboy:

just for the record so i dont like the bull either..... but im sure AC dont give a dam..and i dont blame him :cowboy:

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I made the comment that I wasn't impressed with his bull - but I do think that's a fancy bunch of calves. Remember they are just fall babies.

 

[hillbillycwo]

Found out the hard way that Diplomatic comments and suggestions cost me money. Much rather someone say things to me that hit home so I can learn. Know one thing my bull looks like he77 but his calves sure grow well. Noone likes him but they like his calves.

Would be curious as to the EPD's on the bull in question here. His calves sure look good for September calves. Hope mine look that good three months after birth.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

My only hope is,, that the folks that buy his cattle and send him back carcass data can learn from this :lol:

 

[Dylan Biggs]

Found out the hard way that Diplomatic comments and suggestions cost me money. Much rather someone say things to me that hit home so I can learn. Know one thing my bull looks like he77 but his calves sure grow well. Noone likes him but they like his calves.

Would be curious as to the EPD's on the bull in question here. His calves sure look good for September calves. Hope mine look that good three months after birth.

That's the thing, depending on what time of year you are looking at a bull, his age, his management, pasture quality, how many cows he has serviced, size of the pasture, distance to water, insects, weather, etc, etc, a bulls appearance can vary alot. Seeing one snap shot in time certainly doesn't tell the whole story.

I have been making my bulls work a bit this winter, not much supplementation and one thing for sure they will look a lot different come July then they do now. :cboy: