A couple of heifers down under

[Putangitangi]

Here are two 15 month old heifers. As I suffer terribly from 'barn blindness', I'd appreciate any comments anyone would like to make.
The sire of both is a Future Direction son from Australia: Ardrossan Connection X15.

 

[Brightview]

I have seen a large number of X15 heifers and bulls, and these two heifers do not in any way reflect the phenotype of X15 cattle. Take your rose coloured glasses off and see them for what they are!!!
Lee

 

[Putangitangi]

Ok, you believe they're rubbish; why? In what ways are they completely unlike their relatives? In what ways will they fail as productive cows? Are they structurally faulty? If so, how?

As someone who's not been involved with cattle for many years, I came here hoping for education, not one-line dismissal! Share your knowledge. Please.

 

[Keren]

Ok, since you havent had a lot of help I will tell you what I see in them.

First of all, they appear small and immature for 15 months. Not real broody.

They are very fine boned.

They appear slightly post-legged (too straight in the hind legs).

They appear very lightly muscled, even under-fed.

They appear to lack depth, spring of rib and overall capacity.

The second heifer appears to be structurally weak in the spine, just behind the shoulder.

They could do with more length from hip to pin.

Those are the problems I see with them. Here are the good things I can see in them:

They appear feminine in the head and neck.

They appear to be reasonably long bodied cattle.

They have the correct angle from hip to pin.

They appear to have good smooth shoulders.

They appear to have good temperament.

Overall, I think they will do fine as average commercial cows. I do not believe they will be stud-quality cows, or even very good commercial cows. I do not know the bull so I cannot compare these calves to his other progeny. Please note, I have said "They appear", because as we all know a photo can be very different to real life, and these heifers may look better in real life. I would suggest, for these females, the proof is in the pudding, that is to say, the deciding factor will be what their calves are like.

Good luck with them, and I hope this helps you assess them.

 

[Putangitangi]

Thank you, Keren, that's far more helpful. I shall review them in the flesh with your comments in mind. I find it difficult to disconnect my early impressions and prejudice and reassess them as they change, in which I suspect I'm not alone.

A definition of broody when referring to heifers would help me, if you have the time. Spring of rib is another I'm having difficulty with. Please point me to a good description.

These heifers are what the 27-month heifers used to look like before we introduced better genetics and improved the feed here. That's why I was feeling reasonably pleased with them. By the time of the photograph, they'd had about three weeks of decent grass after winter and a slow-growth early spring; we don't feed anything else, rarely even hay. Our grass grows year-round, but is not always available in abundance. These heifers are in average condition for the area in which I farm. Perhaps few around here feed their cattle well enough, or maybe all the other rounded cattle on this board make mine look skinny.
The first heifer weighed 862 lbs and the second 937 lbs in the following week. If those are only weaning weights in some herds, here they're very good mating weights for their age and expected adult size (cows average around 1200 lbs).

 

[Keren]

Broody is a hard one to explain, but you get some heifers that just LOOK like cows at a younger age . . . great big pelvic area, that 'cow' face, mature-looking, for want of a better description. Its one of those things I look for in my cattle, but I probably shouldnt say to other people, because I cant really explain it. These heifers, if this makes any sense, look like HEIFERS, like little babies, rather than having a 'cow-y' look. I know thats a really stupid thing to say, because they are heifers, but I like to see a heifer look kindof mature for her age.

Spring of rib is easier, it refers to how 'curved' the ribs are. On a well-sprung animal, there is more 'bulge' in the rib area, and when you stand behind the animal you can see they really bloom out from the animal. From the side, animals without good spring tend to look flat or slab sided. Good spring of rib contributes to overall body capacity, and the more capacity the better, because not only is there more room for her vital organs to operate, there is also more room for a calf.

I do however, commend you on making such an improvement in your herd. If these animals are an improvement on your previous animals, then your breeding program is a success. We can only review these pictures relative to our own herds, not in your context which is where they belong. And everyone is at different stages in their herd. I can say honestly that these animals would not be up to standard in OUR herd, but I do know of a couple of people that have herds of very similar or even lower quality animals. The important thing is that YOU are making improvement. And if the weights are right . . . then you are on the right track.

 

[Putangitangi]

Thanks Keren, you've put that very nicely. As my heifers have no shine, it is hard to see that they have any roundness at all.

 

[Beefy]

i see nice calves that will make great cows. they remind me of some of my 15 year olds when they were heifers.

(they are a tad posty tho)

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Here are two 15 month old heifers. As I suffer terribly from 'barn blindness', I'd appreciate any comments anyone would like to make.
The sire of both is a Future Direction son from Australia: Ardrossan Connection X15.

-Putangitangi-

Keren has done an admirable job of describing and explaining your heifers. I would just add that it appears to me that the dams of these heifers are more of the "Dairy Type" than "Beef Type". They are leggy, thin boned, long-faced, shallow and not "blocky" as BEEF cattle should be.

I would suggest that you acquire some sale catalogs of beef cattle sales from here in the States, and just look, and look, and look at the pictures, and read about the individual cattle themselves. Pretty soon, your brain will recognize what a BEEF animal really is - from its hooves to the head to the top line to the desirable meat areas of its body. It will implant an "image" in your mind that you will automatically compare to other cattle that you see, and you will just - - Know - - that what you look at either has good phenotype - or it doesn't!

Takes work. Takes time. Takes determination. Takes study. When you can say to yourself "Hey! I think I've got it!" - you are on the road to NOT being Barn blind. You have to be able to look at your OWN animals and say "That looks good!" But, more importantly, you must be able to say " That is lousy!"

As a quick study right now, take the two pictures of these heifers and place them side by side. Then quickly look back and forth, back and forth, from one to the other - to the other - and mentally compare the differences between them. Pretty soon you will be able to do that with live animals, and the differences will jump out at you and yell at you. After you have implanted the desirable images of GOOD cattle in your mind, you will be able to discern what is acceptable and what is NOT acceptable.

Have a GOOD time! And think POSITIVELY! If you think that you can't - you can't. If you KNOW that you can - you WILL!

DOC HARRIS

 

[Putangitangi]

Keren has done an admirable job of describing and explaining your heifers. I would just add that it appears to me that the dams of these heifers are more of the "Dairy Type" than "Beef Type". They are leggy, thin boned, long-faced, shallow and not "blocky" as BEEF cattle should be.

I would suggest that you acquire some sale catalogs of beef cattle sales from here in the States, and just look, and look, and look at the pictures, and read about the individual cattle themselves. Pretty soon, your brain will recognize what a BEEF animal really is - from its hooves to the head to the top line to the desirable meat areas of its body. It will implant and "image" in your mind that you will automatically compare to other cattle that you see, and you will just - - Know - - that what you look at either has good phenotype - or it doesn't!

Takes work. Takes time. Takes determination. Takes study. When you can say to yourself "Hey! I think I've got it!" - you are on the road to NOT being Barn blind. You have to be able to look at your OWN animals and say "That looks good!" But, more importantly, you must be able to say " That is lousy!"

As a quick study right now, take the two pictures of these heifers and place them side by side. Then quickly look back and forth, back and forth, from one to the other - to the other - and mentally compare the differences between them. Pretty soon you will be able to do that with live animals, and the differences will jump out at you and yell at you. After you have implanted the desirable images of GOOD cattle in your mind, you will be able to discern what is acceptable and what is NOT acceptable.

Have a GOOD time! And think POSITIVELY! If you think that you can't - you can't. If you KNOW that you can - you WILL!

DOC HARRIS

Thanks Doc & Beefy.

As someone who came to farming/breeding cattle from another life, I have been surprised by the revelation that even though you buy a great cow someone else bred and then use the best bull you can, there's every possibility that what you'll get from the combination will be far less in quality than either of them.

Presumably this is a dairy-type Angus cow? (Dam of the second heifer above.)

She is capable of carrying a great deal more condition, but at this time of the year that doesn't happen. Gut roundness is due to the type of grass in abundance now. She's around 1400 lbs, somewhat bigger than my herd average, calves routinely 75 lbs. Bred by a guy with a well-respected herd. Another couple of long-term breeders wanted to flush her, so I have made the assumption that in my part of the world she's the type of animal which works well.

I initially bought pedigree cows to breed bulls which would work in my environment to improve a herd which started with a load of 'rubbish' cows of mostly dairy origin. It has been vastly easier to improve the bad ones than to maintain or improve the good ones. I continue to learn and enjoy what I do. In retrospect I would have sold the rubbish and bought better stock; but I might not have learnt as much. If I had thinner skin I wouldn't post my cattle on here either.

 

[KNERSIE]

Putangitangi,

The dam of your second heifer certainly appears to be a very milky cow, but she is a little too frail and angular for my liking. For future matings you can consider a bull with a little less frame, an earlier maturing well muscled type like those of Olde Cattle Co.

Your heifers will make OK cows, their biggest faults is their postleggedness and lack of heartgirth and capacity. They won't be showstoppers, but its nothing that the right bull can't set right in the next generation.

To make what Doc and Keren said a little simpler, a beef bull should look like there is a lot of beef, a lot of gut to fill with grass and it should look like a bull. A beef cow should look like she carries a lot of beef, have lots of room to grow a calf inside her and to use the abundance of grass you typically have in NZ, but she should still look like a cow.

Any so-called beef animal that doesn't look to have lots of beef in them, typically lacks muscle and capacity and tend to be a harder keeping animal. Don't overcomplicate things, find a good beefy type of bull and the next generation will surprize you pleasantly

 

[Keren]

Presumably this is a dairy-type Angus cow? (Dam of the second heifer above.)

Most definitely! She is a lovely cow . . . but not a particularly beefy cow. She is at one extreme of the spectrum, and as Knersie said, bred to a bull at the other end of the spectrum, ie. a very beefy bull, should give you heifers of a nice inbetween type, which carry more meat but also have the good milky qualities of this cow. I want to add the cow has a lot more depth and capacity than the heifers.

 

[Putangitangi]

Thank you all for your comments. You guys must breed hippo-thickness monsters.

While I have tight calving, excellent conception rates and cows which make it through the winter on little feed to grow calves which grow like rockets for sale for good prices as weaners which grow well for their buyers, I'll put up with a little narrowness and a touch of frailty in my cows. They are the animals which are working in this environment. The big heavy cattle fall apart from not enough feed and the little chunky ones don't generally have enough growth in them to create the calves I need for my market. The cows which remain and their daughters which grow fast enough to mate as yearlings, are those which have whatever it takes to do the job here.

Edit: The above being my attempt at recovering my own composure since my cattle met disapproval. There are a lot of views on this thread, so I hope it's been informative.
I started reading this forum for the pictures people posted of their own stock, rather than seeing only beautifully-posed and clipped pictures in catalogues, which rarely look like real cattle. I like my cows and will critically assess them in new ways according to the comments received.

 

[KNERSIE]

While I have tight calving, excellent conception rates and cows which make it through the winter on little feed to grow calves which grow like rockets for sale for good prices as weaners which grow well for their buyers, I'll put up with a little narrowness and a touch of frailty in my cows. They are the animals which are working in this environment. The big heavy cattle fall apart from not enough feed and the little chunky ones don't generally have enough growth in them to create the calves I need for my market. The cows which remain and their daughters which grow fast enough to mate as yearlings, are those which have whatever it takes to do the job here.

You'll be surprised at the variety of different types that will still "work" for you, the real challenge lies in determining how far you can push performance without losing out out on other important traits.

I like your cow, I just don't think she is your ideal beef animal yet, typically a less angular beefier cow tends to be easier keeping, but you need a very healthy ample supply of milk to really let a calf grow as well. You probably just needs to get closer to that middle of the road. That can be done in one generation without losing any of the good traits of that particular cow.

I think the bull selection just didn't quite work out as planned, that happens to the best of us, more often than we'd like to admit. Out of the last 7 AI sires I used I can honestly say only two worked out as planned, one was OK, but not that great that I wan't to continue his line and the other 4 was discontinued.

Edit: The above being my attempt at recovering my own composure since my cattle met disapproval. There are a lot of views on this thread, so I hope it's been informative.
I started reading this forum for the pictures people posted of their own stock, rather than seeing only beautifully-posed and clipped pictures in catalogues, which rarely look like real cattle. I like my cows and will critically assess them in new ways according to the comments received.

We as cattle farmers place so much hope on the next generation that any criticism often leads to an overreaction on our part. We don't really know where you started so we can't neccesarily see the progress the same way you do. We can only work with what we can see.

Some of my best and most profitable cows aren't my best looking cows, they are often a little more angular than my ideal, this just makes the bull selection a bit more critical. Do a search for some of OK Jeanne's posts an look at her cattle. Her cows proves that you can have a very maternal, yet very beefy cow. I'm not so sure here whole pasture looks like that, but I guess only she will know, but the ones that she regularly posts here are top quality stock and is a fine example for the rest of us to strive for.

 

[Keren]

Here are some beef-type females that are not pampered and fluffed up for catalogue photos.

8 1/2 month heifer

Beef-type cow with first calf

15 month heifers

Btw, I dont think you ever lost your composure.

 

[dun]

They are the animals which are working in this environment. I like my cows and will critically assess them in new ways according to the comments received.

Sounds to me like you have critically assessed your cows. We all like to look at pretty cows that look like our ideal, but all too often, contrary to what some folks claim, phenotype isn;t the end all. What works under a producers managment and in their environement, have longevity and meet the needs of their buyers are the real profit makers.

 

[AppalachCattle]

I like your cow the best, but your heifers are OK too. Granted, they are not of the most "beefy" type, but they will make you some money. About 15 yrs ago I had a herd of 37 cows that looked just like yours. They were 1/2 Angus, 1/2 holstein cross. I bred them back to a thick Angus bull. This combination produced the biggest calves I have ever had. Some weaned close to 800 lbs and looked like pure Angus. The cows were easy keeping and really good milkers. Wish I had some again.