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...if the selection process was absolute, then all results would be genetically identical.

I noticed you did not use the word "asbsolute" when defining the percentage inheritance of the calf's parents preceeding your sentence I emphasized. Why not? Also, I am still considering your sentence above..."if the selection process was absolute, then all results would be genetically identical". Pretty good stuff if you ask me. Makes allot of sense. Very abstract which is an area I am a little weak in. Seems like I have to chart some genes before I completely understand. I hope to get back with you on this as it is very interesting.
 
HerefordSire":15rfckhn said:
...if the selection process was absolute, then all results would be genetically identical.

I noticed you did not use the word "asbsolute" when defining the percentage inheritance of the calf's parents preceeding your sentence I emphasized. Why not? Also, I am still considering your sentence above..."if the selection process was absolute, then all results would be genetically identical". Pretty good stuff if you ask me. Makes allot of sense. Very abstract which is an area I am a little weak in. Seems like I have to chart some genes before I completely understand. I hope to get back with you on this as it is very interesting.

Like you, HS, I can manage to wander out to "left field" a bit and occasionally get lost. And I'm still not certain I'm making myself understood here.

The post that brought on my diversion into minutia was this one by knabe:

knabe":15rfckhn said:
Herefords.US":15rfckhn said:
HerefordSire":15rfckhn said:
Are the four new calves 75% 20X? Also, what percentage does your 107H line bred cow's heifer have of 107H genes?

No, to be 75% 20X, they'd have to be 20X bred back to HIS daughters. They are 37.5% 20X. The cow(dam of the heifer) is 34.375% Enforcer 107H, a maternal granddaughter and traces back to him twice on the top side.(25 + 6.25 + 3.125 = 34.375%). She's a rather average looking cow, but she has really nicked well with my 20X son - producing 4 outstanding heifers and a son that I also used a little before selling him. I'll bet that most of my herd will eventually trace back to her, once I start retaining more bulls and linebreeding.

I haven't figured how much 107H blood is in 20X. But my bull's(20X son) dam is a straight Line 1 cow, so there isn't any Enforcer 107H back there.

George

these are probability numbers, not actual returns on percentage of desirable alleles, elimination of undesirables, and doesn't even take into account accumulated environmental response stored in methylation.

Knabe is correct. Those numbers are based on probability and are most likely not 100% accurate.

Aero is also correct. The law of averages would tend to make the overall number of genes inherited from each ancestor closely equal to those commonly used percentages like I used in the post to which knabe responded.

But, through selection, I still believe the influence(gene percentage) provided by an ancestor, repeated in a linebred pedigree multiple times, can be intensified(or diminished) to where their genetic contribution, in those traits selected for, would fall outside of what would be expected.

Clear as mud, huh?

George
 
Knabe is correct. Those numbers are based on probability and are most likely not 100% accurate.

Aero is also correct. The law of averages would tend to make the overall number of genes inherited from each ancestor closely equal to those commonly used percentages like I used in the post to which knabe responded.

But, through selection, I still believe the influence(gene percentage) provided by an ancestor, repeated in a linebred pedigree multiple times, can be intensified(or diminished) to where their genetic contribution, in those traits selected for, would fall outside of what would be expected.

Clear as mud, huh?

George


I am following you. Every little piece of info surely helps. I am not sure why I can't believe blindly beyond a shadow of a doubt until either I, or those I direct, do the research work. It sure is hard on me to remove all doubt through research and I am not getting younger.
 
One day, some clone will out breed the dam she was cloned from. Then they'll be cloning the clone, and CL1 might have a whole new meaning. The farmer will be sitting at the computer counting the profit he's making, on his $18000 clones, while a robot does the AIing. They will be special times :roll:
 
rocket2222":3gupf61s said:
One day, some clone will out breed the dam she was cloned from. Then they'll be cloning the clone, and CL1 might have a whole new meaning. The farmer will be sitting at the computer counting the profit he's making, on his $18000 clones, while a robot does the AIing. They will be special times :roll:


when we get there I quit!
:cry2:
 
rocket2222":1143ayu3 said:
One day, some clone will out breed the dam she was cloned from. Then they'll be cloning the clone, and CL1 might have a whole new meaning. The farmer will be sitting at the computer counting the profit he's making, on his $18000 clones, while a robot does the AIing. They will be special times :roll:


Funny you mentioned that. I wouldn't go that far yet. However, strange mechanical inventions have been entering my mind having to do with cattle. For example, have a cow graze on a treadmill like structure. She is walking just like normally eating from a forward hay compartment, except she is not moving anywhere. The tread mill propels a generator which stores the energy and the excrement contraption stores the wastes. Say I had 1,000 cows... that would be allot of energy for farm usage and allot of manure I could spread. Wait until you hear the other weird things I thought of.
 
Herefords.US":1yzr9r3l said:
HerefordSire":1yzr9r3l said:
.... and allot of manure I could spread.

Some folks might think you're ALREADY speading enough of that, HS! :wave:

Yeah, I KNOW! I resemble that remark as well. :tiphat:

George

It is a bit peculiar and suspecting how it always seems like the same individuals refer to manure spreading as an intended insult in the hope that they are well beyond perfection so their peers end up inviting them over for a Bud Lime. :mrgreen:
 
HerefordSire":248uzexu said:
rocket2222":248uzexu said:
One day, some clone will out breed the dam she was cloned from. Then they'll be cloning the clone, and CL1 might have a whole new meaning. The farmer will be sitting at the computer counting the profit he's making, on his $18000 clones, while a robot does the AIing. They will be special times :roll:


Funny you mentioned that. I wouldn't go that far yet. However, strange mechanical inventions have been entering my mind having to do with cattle. For example, have a cow graze on a treadmill like structure. She is walking just like normally eating from a forward hay compartment, except she is not moving anywhere. The tread mill propels a generator which stores the energy and the excrement contraption stores the wastes. Say I had 1,000 cows... that would be allot of energy for farm usage and allot of manure I could spread. Wait until you hear the other weird things I thought of.

Actually there are dairy operators already doing this same basic thing except the electricity is generated from the methane gas captured and utilized from the collection of waste. Cow saves energy by not walking on the treadmill and instead MAKES MILK. :lol:
 
TexasBred":3ulhbc6f said:
HerefordSire":3ulhbc6f said:
rocket2222":3ulhbc6f said:
One day, some clone will out breed the dam she was cloned from. Then they'll be cloning the clone, and CL1 might have a whole new meaning. The farmer will be sitting at the computer counting the profit he's making, on his $18000 clones, while a robot does the AIing. They will be special times :roll:


Funny you mentioned that. I wouldn't go that far yet. However, strange mechanical inventions have been entering my mind having to do with cattle. For example, have a cow graze on a treadmill like structure. She is walking just like normally eating from a forward hay compartment, except she is not moving anywhere. The tread mill propels a generator which stores the energy and the excrement contraption stores the wastes. Say I had 1,000 cows... that would be allot of energy for farm usage and allot of manure I could spread. Wait until you hear the other weird things I thought of.

Actually there are dairy operators already doing this same basic thing except the electricity is generated from the methane gas captured and utilized from the collection of waste. Cow saves energy by not walking on the treadmill and instead MAKES MILK. :lol:


Disregarding excrement output, right now, 5 years from now, and 20 years form now, which output do you think is or will be the most valuable provided they all have the same input?

Dairy Cow Output = Milk measured by the gallon
Beef Cow/Calf Output = Beef measured by the pound
Beef Cow, No calf, No Milk Output = Energy measured by the kilowatt
 
Dairy Cow Output = Milk measured by the gallon
Beef Cow/Calf Output = Beef measured by the pound
Beef Cow, No calf, No Milk Output = Energy measured by the kilowatt


Dairy....(milk measured by hundred-weight) probably not one in 50 making a real living strictly from the farm even today...Milk prices often no higher than 25 years ago....very high input cost and very labor intensive.... at anytime in the future the probability of profitability will always be on the decline.

Cow/Calf operation....Still get's my vote..
Beef Cow, no calf, no milk....dead weight and must still be fed to be able to keep walking that treatmill.

Utilized properly the manure could well be the most valuable commodity long term commodity from any of the 3 choices and might actually increase the odds of their survival.

As mentioned above, there area already dairy operations utilizing the methane gas from manure on the farm. Others are using it for fertilizer. There are also companies who come out and remove manure from dairies, compost it then bag and sell it in large stores like WalMart...ever wonder how much manure is in one of those 99 cent bags of "cow manure" at WalMart??? Not much. ;-)
 
TexasBred":218rcpoc said:
Dairy Cow Output = Milk measured by the gallon
Beef Cow/Calf Output = Beef measured by the pound
Beef Cow, No calf, No Milk Output = Energy measured by the kilowatt


Dairy....(milk measured by hundred-weight) probably not one in 50 making a real living strictly from the farm even today...Milk prices often no higher than 25 years ago....very high input cost and very labor intensive.... at anytime in the future the probability of profitability will always be on the decline.

Cow/Calf operation....Still get's my vote..
Beef Cow, no calf, no milk....dead weight and must still be fed to be able to keep walking that treatmill.

Utilized properly the manure could well be the most valuable commodity long term commodity from any of the 3 choices and might actually increase the odds of their survival.

As mentioned above, there area already dairy operations utilizing the methane gas from manure on the farm. Others are using it for fertilizer. There are also companies who come out and remove manure from dairies, compost it then bag and sell it in large stores like WalMart...ever wonder how much manure is in one of those 99 cent bags of "cow manure" at WalMart??? Not much. ;-)

I wanted to stay away from excrement so we could first estimate energy output and projected value from all three sources including dairy cows, beef cows, and work cows. However, since you continue to refer to excrement, which breed produces the most valuable excrement (wasted energy) such that less would be used on normal milk, calf, and electricity output?
 
Dairy cattle will always produce more manure as they are fed much more heavily year round....typical ration for a dairy cow will be 55 lbs. or more of 100% dry matter while lactating. When dried off they don't get nearly as much but in most cases another cow freshens and replaces her immediately in the barn so milking numbers don't fluctuate greatly. Dairy cows are "sh1tting machines". Plain and simple. :lol:

But since we're playing....how long do you think you could keep any cow walking on a treadmill, even with feed and water and repeat the action day in and day out? She will become less and less productive with each day that passes....The attrition rate will be astronomical, weight gain will be nada, feed and forage cost would be out of sight and you'll be buying replacements constantly. I don't even see a positive cash flow let alone a profit.
 
I have been following this discussion over the past few days and I want to know what you guys think you are breeding for? As has been pointed out, cloning stops all forward progress, but maybe the question is towards what?

The pendulum swings back and forth, I hope you are all breeding for the middle. :)
 
KMacGinley":2vr9oasg said:
I have been following this discussion over the past few days and I want to know what you guys think you are breeding for? As has been pointed out, cloning stops all forward progress, but maybe the question is towards what?

The pendulum swings back and forth, I hope you are all breeding for the middle. :)

I am going to answer your question with another question:

All other things being equal, what would you rather have?

(A) A bull with a high SC of 2.0 with an accuracy of .5

(B) A bull with a lower SC of median breed value with an accuracy of .5
 
Dairy cattle will always produce more manure as they are fed much more heavily year round....typical ration for a dairy cow will be 55 lbs. or more of 100% dry matter while lactating. When dried off they don't get nearly as much but in most cases another cow freshens and replaces her immediately in the barn so milking numbers don't fluctuate greatly. Dairy cows are "sh1tting machines". Plain and simple. :lol:

I should have stated the qualifier...all input (mainly feed) is identical.

But since we're playing....how long do you think you could keep any cow walking on a treadmill, even with feed and water and repeat the action day in and day out? She will become less and less productive with each day that passes....The attrition rate will be astronomical, weight gain will be nada, feed and forage cost would be out of sight and you'll be buying replacements constantly. I don't even see a positive cash flow let alone a profit.

That is an easy one.....make sure the treadmill is sloped downward at a 15 degree angle. :mrgreen: I think you are saying the energy usage would be greater for working cattle than for a milk cow or a beef cow provided they receive the different inputs. If the energy usage input was identical for all three scenarios, which would be the most productive taking into consideration the retail cost of milk, the retail cost of beef, and the retail cost of electricity? How about in 10 years?
 
That is an easy one.....make sure the treadmill is sloped downward at a 15 degree angle. :mrgreen: I think you are saying the energy usage would be greater for working cattle than for a milk cow or a beef cow provided they receive the different inputs. If the energy usage input was identical for all three scenarios, which would be the most productive taking into consideration the retail cost of milk, the retail cost of beef, and the retail cost of electricity? How about in 10 years?

Too many variables..."not all cattle are created equal"...like everything else you'd have to determine the best breed, most efficient frame size, ability to convert feed....holstein cattle will always produce more milk...and they definitely know how to eat...but they are also fragile and do not handle extreme stress well and when expected to walk on a treaadmill "downhill" for hours milk production will drop dramatically. On the other hand even if you're beef cows learn to eat 55 lbs. how much milk will they make, will they breed back and will they keep walking?? All at the same time?????.........Would take years of study and experimentation to come to any kind of conclusion other than "You're killing a lot of good cattle" and all you end up with is a notebook full of numbers and a lot less money than you began with. :nod:
 
Too many variables..."not all cattle are created equal"...like everything else you'd have to determine the best breed, most efficient frame size, ability to convert feed....holstein cattle will always produce more milk...and they definitely know how to eat...but they are also fragile and do not handle extreme stress well and when expected to walk on a treaadmill "downhill" for hours milk production will drop dramatically. On the other hand even if you're beef cows learn to eat 55 lbs. how much milk will they make, will they breed back and will they keep walking?? All at the same time?????.........Would take years of study and experimentation to come to any kind of conclusion other than "You're killing a lot of good cattle" and all you end up with is a notebook full of numbers and a lot less money than you began with. :nod:

I project the work cow (may want to breed/use an ox just like the old days) producing energy (electricity...via methane and turbine generator) will produce the most valued output with the same inputs as the dairy cow and the beef cow combined. In other words, I am expecting a shortage of world wide energy supply. The rest I will leave to our imaginations.
 

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