7 day old calves....

[Lucky_P]

Highly unlikely that salt is the culprit in 7-day old calves on the dam.

Any vetch in pasture or hay?
www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/cahfs/local_reso ... t_2016.pdf

 

[Bright Raven]

Highly unlikely that salt is the culprit in 7-day old calves on the dam.

Any vetch in pasture or hay?
http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/cahfs/loc ... t_2016.pdf

Lucky,

I have been all over the Fire Sweep farm even there during hay harvest and moved the rolls out of the field for them. I have seen very little vetch. I have more here.

However, they do purchase most of their hay.

 

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

Lucky, I have seen no evidence of vetch in my hay. I purchased all of my hay this year, and went to the fields they came out of, and did not see any. The group gets a bale of grass hay and a bale of alfalfa/crab grass every other day. They finish the grass hay first, then eat the alfalfa (I do not drop more hay until it is all cleaned up).
Jeanne - we do not routinely give multi-min. So these two got it after showing symptoms. I asked the vet while he was here if I should give them BoSe, and he said no because I gave the Multi-min already. That is where my thought process is; maybe a few calves are week at 6 days because they are lacking a mineral.... hopefully the blood test will tell us something (however, blood was drawn 48 hours after giving the multi-min so I am not sure how that will affect the test results).
Calf number two, the younger and smaller calf, is doing much better! He was up and running this morning when I went to the barn, the cow's udder is nursed down, and he came up to munch on the hay I put down for the cow. I think we are on the clear side with him. I really think the multi-min helps these calves, it seems that it takes about 3 days to see improvement after giving it (I gave multi-min on Wed, SQ).
Calf two is still wobbly, but he is also dealing with a little bit of milk scours. He has always been a very slow, mellow calf. He was 96 pounds at birth, and reminds me of a surfer dude type personality. But, the cow's udder is soft and when forced he gets up and walks around. His recip dam is a 9 year old cow that has a ton of milk and raises a big one every year.
They are both still in the barn because we received a bunch of freezing rain over the last 24 hours, and I did not want to compound the issues. I will let them out tomorrow, when it should warm up a little and do some thawing....

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Chris - If it were me - I would give every calf a multimin shot at birth. I used to use BoSe at birth, but have switched to Multimin at birth. I also give a Vit. A&D shot at birth. Something Cornell Univ always has recommended. I go out of my way to purchase one that can be given SQ.
It sure sounds/looks like it "could" be WMD. Lucky would have more input.
But, SE at birth does not hurt anything, I highly recommend it.

 

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

Well, both calves came back clear for BVD, which I expected. Still waiting on the mineral blood work.... both calves are now completely normal, as usual.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Good to hear they are good now.
But, like you said, the mineral blood work probably won't give you a true picture because you had already given the Multimin.
It makes sense to me that it would take a few days for the SE to be effective if they had WMD.

 

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

So, an update to this thread.
We got the results back today on the mineral panel on the calf. Selenium and Copper were a little high, but I gave Multi Min just a day before the blood test, so that explains that. HOWEVER, the calf was severely iron deficient! It's readings were 18, and a normal bovine ranges from 80-200, according to my vet. Now, that calf if fine and normal, however we had two calves about a week ago and one of them has started exhibiting the same weakness and staggering. My vet recommended getting some iron (like they give baby pigs), and injecting each calf at birth until we figure out why!
These last two calves were given MultiMin at birth, as Jeanne suggested. I was surprised when one of them started the general staggering that I have seen in the past, and in fact Ron (Bright Raven) was insistent I call the vet and get this figured out. I called the office today, and we came up with a plan; giving injectable iron at birth on all calves from now on. 10ML will give 1000 units of iron. Both the week old calves got a shot tonight, 5ml in two locations.
Our mineral does not contain Iron, since iron can bind the absorption of many other minerals. In beef cattle, it is not perceived as a problem. So why the heck am I having an issue with it? I have called our mineral supplier (Vitaferm), the beef specialist from the extension center, and a few others to see if we can figure this out.
It appears the calves are burning through the supply of iron they get from the placental transfer, and not enough iron in the milk to keep them going. Why are the cows milk low in iron?
Does anyone else have any experience in this area? I would certainly like to figure out why this calving season seems to be a bit more challenging than others..... ugh

 

[farmerjan]

Wow, never heard of iron deficiency in calves although it is common in pigs that are not exposed to dirt. Many people actually give their sows some clumps of dirt to help negate the iron deficiency besides iron shots.
It seems to me that I read somewhere that alfalfa can interfere with iron absorption.... So maybe that is what has happened? Very glad that a mineral panel has at least given you a reason and a direction to go from here. I use alfalfa for my dairy nurse cows, but they get a limited amount and then plenty of grass mixed hay as well as sorghum/sudan all free choice. It is something I will definitely keep an eye on.
Thanks for sharing and for taking the time and effort to try to get it figured out. A good lesson for us all to take note of.

 

[Boot Jack Bulls]

Firesweep, we give our goats an Iron bolus every 3 months or so. It is long acting, so it is absorbed over time...maybe something to look at...

 

[Bright Raven]

Iron is the fourth most abundant element on earth and probably the entire universe. It is a key element in the physiological function of flora and fauna.

If your soil is deficient, it is easy to detect. Grasses and plants will not be dark green because iron is a constituent of chlorophyll, the green plant plastids that makes sugars. I have observed that in your part of Missouri, the parent rock is limestone and chert. The weathering of limestone should provide good levels of iron. Plus, your grasses are green. Even when you are dry, I have observed that your grasses stay greener than they do here.

I would look elsewhere for the deficiency of iron. You and I both use Vitafirm Concept-Aide. As we discussed, it is not listed in the 'Guaranteed Analysis' but Ferrous Sulfate is listed in the ingredients.

If iron is deficient in your program, it would have occurred before this fall and winter calving event.

I would look to an infectious agent that is compromising the physiological wellbeing of your calves or a noninfectious disease.

This is going to be an epidemiological puzzle!!!

 

[True Grit Farms]

Don't over think an easy solution, feed a mineral high in iron oxide the mineral will be red in color.

 

[TexasBred]

Iron is the fourth most abundant element on earth and probably the entire universe. It is a key element in the physiological function of flora and fauna.

If your soil is deficient, it is easy to detect. Grasses and plants will not be dark green because iron is a constituent of chlorophyll, the green plant plastids that makes sugars. I have observed that in your part of Missouri, the parent rock is limestone and chert. The weathering of limestone should provide good levels of iron. Plus, your grasses are green. Even when you are dry, I have observed that your grasses stay greener than they do here.

I would look elsewhere for the deficiency of iron. You and I both use Vitafirm Concept-Aide. As we discussed, it is not listed in the 'Guaranteed Analysis' but Ferrous Sulfate is listed in the ingredients.

If iron is deficient in your program, it would have occurred before this fall and winter calving event.

I would look to an infectious agent that is compromising the physiological wellbeing of your calves or a noninfectious disease.

This is going to be an epidemiological puzzle!!!

Calcium will inhibit the absorption of iron and guess where these calves are getting most of their calcium??? Milk !!! Most minerals will never show a guarantee for the amount of iron in the mixture as it is usually very limited, is not required to be disclosed and normally quite low, however it does appear they ahve added some iron to her mineral. Don't know that this is the problem but certainly could be part of it.

 

[NonTypicalCPA]

Any chance that it has a genetic component in your herd? I'm not really familiar with iron deficiency.

 

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

Any chance that it has a genetic component in your herd? I'm not really familiar with iron deficiency.

Not likely, since some are embryos and some are AI. The embryos are all purchased, so not related to our genetics. But very good question.

I did find this information: https://www.sprayfo.com/en/Learn-more/H ... -calves--/

Even though it is promoting a product, it has actual data on calves and iron levels.

TB - I was hoping you would chime in. DO you think the hay we have been feeding could be low in iron? From my research, cattle get most of their iron from feed.... if the cows are lacking in iron, thus producing milk that is low in iron, I would think the finger would point there?

BR - I will not exclude your idea, however I doubt it is an infectious agent. It would likely affect all calves, and not just 15% of the calves.

Everyone I have talked to thus far have all been stumped. The extension agent was going to the cattlemen meeting last night, and said he would ask the group there if anyone had any similar cases.

I found this thread through my research viewtopic.php?t=92977
So, I will see if the calves are any better tonight, which would be 24 hours after I gave the shot.

 

[bball]

Fire sweep, please post what you observe post Fe injection. Very interested in this subject. Thanks

 

[TexasBred]

Any chance that it has a genetic component in your herd? I'm not really familiar with iron deficiency.

Not likely, since some are embryos and some are AI. The embryos are all purchased, so not related to our genetics. But very good question.

I did find this information: https://www.sprayfo.com/en/Learn-more/H ... -calves--/

Even though it is promoting a product, it has actual data on calves and iron levels.

TB - I was hoping you would chime in. DO you think the hay we have been feeding could be low in iron? From my research, cattle get most of their iron from feed.... if the cows are lacking in iron, thus producing milk that is low in iron, I would think the finger would point there?

BR - I will not exclude your idea, however I doubt it is an infectious agent. It would likely affect all calves, and not just 15% of the calves.

Everyone I have talked to thus far have all been stumped. The extension agent was going to the cattlemen meeting last night, and said he would ask the group there if anyone had any similar cases.

I found this thread through my research http://www.cattletoday.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=92977
So, I will see if the calves are any better tonight, which would be 24 hours after I gave the shot.

More than likely your hay is high in calcium but so is most everyone elses. I honestly don't know. I personally have never supplemented iron in my cattle and have never had any problems.

 

[wbvs58]

I would do a few serial iron levels before any iron injections like at birth, those affected and those after recovery to try and get a bit more cause and effect evidence. I am always sceptical on just one low level. I haven't looked things up but to my knowledge symptoms of iron deficiency is mainly around the red cells and low haemoglobin levels, was the calf anaemic and what were the Hb levels?

Ken

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Seems like the calves are using up more iron than normal. If your cows "appear" normal, great health, then you would think the iron level was fine with them. I would take a mineral panel on the COWS. This would tell you if research needed on the cow end or the calf end.
Also, by recommendation from Cornell Univ., I have ALWAYS give a Vitamin A&D shot at birth. they say the calf is born deficient. They never indicated that this was a regional "thing".